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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 11:13:39 -0700
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Why left-grouping of tanru?
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I have to dig into the basement of the library at UMSL,where there is a com=
plete run The Loglanist.  I think the grouping question came up before and =
I think JCB's answer was about as mentioned here: the way grouping goes in =
math and especially the standard logic textbooks (of say 1950) plus the eas=
ier eye parsing (though mind parsing seems often to work the other way).  I=
t was all decided even before my time (back in 1955-6 in fact).  While I am=
 down there, I'll look for PLGS, which, as I recall (not a very promising b=
asis), was worked over several times up through something like "pretty litt=
le girls school teachers union official".  There is certainly also a genera=
l paper on enumerating (and displaying) possibilities of whatever length.


On Thursday, September 4, 2014 7:14 PM, "Bob LeChevalier, President and Fou=
nder - LLG" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
=20


On 9/4/2014 10:58 AM, TR NS wrote:
> Was wondering why "left-grouping rule" was chosen as the default for tanr=
u?
>
> I ran though random examples of using two adjectives in my head and they
> are almost always right-grouping. "big red truck", "bright yellow star",
> "little lost ant", there are exceptions, like "dark roast coffee", but
> even then the right-grouping would be okay. But in the other examples
> left-grouping would be just flat wrong.

The short answer is that Lojban has that default because TLI Loglan had=20
that default, and we weren't trying to change anything without a good=20
reason.

Why that default for Loglan?  John Clifford may know for certain, since=20
he predates nearly everyone living in his work on the language, but my=20
wife believes that the reason is that mathematical grouping defaults to=20
left grouping for the same operator, and also that left grouping is=20
easiest to parse as you go along.  But JCB did attempt to analyze all=20
possible groupings to ensure that all were well-representable in Loglan=20
(his attempts were incomplete, since he had only 16 of the 24 possible=20
groupings, but the complete set was eventually worked out. IIRC, John=20
was actively involved in that solution.)

The problem was called the "pretty little girls school" (PLGS) problem=20
because there are ways to read that phrase that invoke most or all of=20
the possible groupings.

In the Lojban design era, we extended the analysis to longer strings=20
(eventually "pretty little girls school house door knob") with much more=20
convoluted possibilities, but I doubt that any documentation remains of=20
that analysis.

lojbab

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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:He=
lveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt"><div><span>I have to dig into the basement of the library at =
UMSL,where there is a complete run The Loglanist. &nbsp;I think the groupin=
g question came up before and I think JCB's answer was about as mentioned h=
ere: the way grouping goes in math and especially the standard logic textbo=
oks (of say 1950) plus the easier eye parsing (though mind parsing seems of=
ten to work the other way). &nbsp;It was all decided even before my time (b=
ack in 1955-6 in fact). &nbsp;While I am down there, I'll look for PLGS, wh=
ich, as I recall (not a very promising basis), was worked over several time=
s up through something like "pretty little girls school teachers union offi=
cial". &nbsp;There is certainly also a general paper on enumerating (and di=
splaying) possibilities of whatever length.</span></div> <div
 class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=3D"yahoo_quoted" style=3D=
"display: block;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neu=
e', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div =
style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'L=
ucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font size=
=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> On Thursday, September 4, 2014 7:14 PM, "Bob LeCheva=
lier, President and Founder - LLG" &lt;lojbab@lojban.org&gt; wrote:<br> </f=
ont> </div>  <br><br> <div class=3D"y_msg_container">On 9/4/2014 10:58 AM, =
TR NS wrote:<br>&gt; Was wondering why "left-grouping rule" was chosen as t=
he default for tanru?<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I ran though random examples of using=
 two adjectives in my head and they<br>&gt; are almost always right-groupin=
g. "big red truck", "bright yellow star",<br>&gt; "little lost ant", there =
are exceptions, like "dark roast coffee", but<br>&gt; even then the right-g=
rouping
 would be okay. But in the other examples<br>&gt; left-grouping would be ju=
st flat wrong.<br><br>The short answer is that Lojban has that default beca=
use TLI Loglan had <br>that default, and we weren't trying to change anythi=
ng without a good <br>reason.<br><br>Why that default for Loglan?&nbsp; Joh=
n Clifford may know for certain, since <br>he predates nearly everyone livi=
ng in his work on the language, but my <br>wife believes that the reason is=
 that mathematical grouping defaults to <br>left grouping for the same oper=
ator, and also that left grouping is <br>easiest to parse as you go along.&=
nbsp; But JCB did attempt to analyze all <br>possible groupings to ensure t=
hat all were well-representable in Loglan <br>(his attempts were incomplete=
, since he had only 16 of the 24 possible <br>groupings, but the complete s=
et was eventually worked out. IIRC, John <br>was actively involved in that =
solution.)<br><br>The problem was called the "pretty little girls
 school" (PLGS) problem <br>because there are ways to read that phrase that=
 invoke most or all of <br>the possible groupings.<br><br>In the Lojban des=
ign era, we extended the analysis to longer strings <br>(eventually "pretty=
 little girls school house door knob") with much more <br>convoluted possib=
ilities, but I doubt that any documentation remains of <br>that analysis.<b=
r><br>lojbab<br><br>-- <br>You received this message because you are subscr=
ibed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe from this group=
 and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+<a ymailto=3D"m=
ailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com." href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroup=
s.com.">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.</a><br>To post to this group, send em=
ail to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com." href=3D"mailto:lojban=
@googlegroups.com.">lojban@googlegroups.com.</a><br>Visit this group at htt=
p://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<br>For more options, visit
 https://groups.google.com/d/optout.<br><br><br></div>  </div> </div>  </di=
v> </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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