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From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 15:13:26 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu
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Now that you've explained it, just use it and see what happens.

stevo


On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
>     A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit
> BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors.  Now,
> according to CLL 7.5.8:
>
>>          The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series
>> pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are
>> taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning with
>> the same letter
>
>
>    And similarly in 17.9.2:
>
>>   If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a single
>> lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti whose name
>> or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu
>
>     That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to time
> about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti.  Some suggest counting
> the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest using the
> first letter of the internal bridi.  This poses two problems.  First,
> consider the following:
>
>  la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny
>
>   Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming?  It depends on which
> one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has
> the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for
> events and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain
> vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).)
>
>   The second problem is what do you do with an example like this:
>
>    la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna        ?
>
>   The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction sumti
> with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare.  But what would the second
> camp call it?  They can't use ny, that's Norman to them.  They can't use
> "ry", that's Rover himself.  "ly"?  Maybe, but it seems a stretch.  They
> would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se
> go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/
>
>
>   Proposed solution:
>
>   New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer,
> and can refer ONLY  to the abstraction.  "But if they are a letter/symbol,
> what do they look like?" you ask.   That's the beauty of lojban.  It
> doesn't matter,  Because we are talking here only about using them as
> evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do.
>
>   This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would
> make discourse clearer and cleaner.
>
>      What do people think?
>
>                    --gejyspa
>
>  --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace">Now that you&#39;ve explained it, just use it and see what h=
appens.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courie=
r new,monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-famil=
y:courier new,monospace">stevo</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Michael Turnia=
nsky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A sub=
ject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit BY prosumti=
, especially when they interact with abstractors. =C2=A0Now, according to C=
LL 7.5.8:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0The =
main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko&#39;a-series pro-sumti is t=
hat, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are taken to refer t=
o the most recent name or description sumti beginning with the same letter<=
/blockquote><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0And similarly in 17.9.=
2:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style=
:solid;padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0 If no assignment    can be found for a lerf=
u string (especially a single lerfu    word), it can be assumed to refer to=
 the most recent sumti    whose name or description begins in Lojban with t=
hat lerfu</blockquote><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That&#39;s all very well and good,=
 but questions come up from time to time about what letter to use for an ab=
straction sumti. =C2=A0Some suggest counting the NU that marks the start of=
 the structure, others suggest using the first letter of the internal bridi=
. =C2=A0This poses two problems. =C2=A0First, consider the following:</div>=
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny</=
div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swi=
mming? =C2=A0It depends on which one of the above approaches the author use=
s (the first approach also has the unenviable problem of having a multiplic=
ity of &quot;ny&quot; and &quot;ky&quot; used for events and properties, an=
d their concomitant unavailability for plain vanilla sumti (at least for im=
plicit assignment).)</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 The second problem is =
what do you do with an example like this:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 The first camp would have no probl=
em talking about the abstraction sumti with an implicit BY &quot;It&#39;s n=
y,&quot; they declare. =C2=A0But what would the second camp call it? =C2=A0=
They can&#39;t use ny, that&#39;s Norman to them. =C2=A0They can&#39;t use =
&quot;ry&quot;, that&#39;s Rover himself. =C2=A0&quot;ly&quot;? =C2=A0Maybe=
, but it seems a stretch. =C2=A0They would pretty much be forced to use exp=
licit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go&#39;i/go&#39;e/go&#39;a, or the like/=
</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 Proposed solution:</div><di=
v><br></div><div>=C2=A0 New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu f=
amily) that refer, and can refer ONLY =C2=A0to the abstraction. =C2=A0&quot=
;But if they are a letter/symbol, what do they look like?&quot; you ask. =
=C2=A0 That&#39;s the beauty of lojban. =C2=A0It doesn&#39;t matter, =C2=A0=
Because we are talking here only about using them as evaluatable symbols, t=
o refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 T=
his breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would make d=
iscourse clearer and cleaner. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0What do people think?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa</div><span class=
=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div></font></span></div><spa=
n class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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