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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 15:06:40 -0700
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: criticism of lojban needed
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Bob's reply is somewhat disingenuous.  MEX can reproduce a logical formula =
exactly, I'm sure, but the goal is to produce *sentences* whose logical str=
ucture are transparent both at a glance and provably after analysis.  And s=
till be a functioning human language.  Loglan is apparently the latter, the=
 question remains whether it is the former.  There is, by the way, no doubt=
 that this is and has been the goal form at least a significant portion of =
Lojbanist and Loglanist since the start (albeit somewhat vaguely worded in =
the beginning).


On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:43 PM, "Bob LeChevalier, President and Fo=
under - LLG" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
=20


On 9/3/2014 12:30 PM, selpa'i wrote:
> la .van. cu cusku
>> On Wed, Sep 03, 2014 at 08:44:55AM -0700, 'John E Clifford' via
>> lojban wrote:
>>> Let's see how that line of objections, rather than ones to the
>>> cosmetics, can be met and turned into a positive discussion of
>>> Lojban.
>>
>> I'm sorry, I might have missed something here, but "It's all crap and
>> anyone could do better" is no valid criticism pe'i
>
> If the goal is to make a language that unambiguously encodes logic, then
> that's relatively easy to achieve. See xorban for one model that doesn't
> add too much unnecessary baggage. Lojban does achieves it too to some
> degree, but it has so much extras that most of the language is still
> undefined. We cannot easily convert Lojban to logic due to that.

I need to note here that if the goal is merely to encode logic, then=20
Lojban can probably be called "successful" in that I believe that=20
anything expressible in logical notation can probably be represented in=20
Mex (the operators needed for any given notation have not been defined,=20
but Mex is defined so as to allow innumerable sets of operators as well=20
as precedences).

So far as I know, no one in the community is interested in such a narrow=20
goal.

> And what about simplicity? Here Gua\spi and Xorban are the clear
> winners, closely followed by Toaq Dzu, and far in the distance comes
> Lojban. Just compare the sizes of their grammars to get a rough idea.

Of course part of the problem is that very few such languages have been=20
USED to the extent that Lojban has.  Feature growth has come from usage.

lojbab


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--=20
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:He=
lveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt"><div><span>Bob's reply is somewhat disingenuous. &nbsp;MEX ca=
n reproduce a logical formula exactly, I'm sure, but the goal is to produce=
 *sentences* whose logical structure are transparent both at a glance and p=
rovably after analysis. &nbsp;And still be a functioning human language. &n=
bsp;Loglan is apparently the latter, the question remains whether it is the=
 former. &nbsp;There is, by the way, no doubt that this is and has been the=
 goal form at least a significant portion of Lojbanist and Loglanist since =
the start (albeit somewhat vaguely worded in the beginning).</span></div><d=
iv style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeu=
e, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-st=
yle: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span></div>
 <div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=3D"yahoo_quoted" sty=
le=3D"display: block;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetic=
a Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> =
<div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Aria=
l, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font =
size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:43 PM, "Bob Le=
Chevalier, President and Founder - LLG" &lt;lojbab@lojban.org&gt; wrote:<br=
> </font> </div>  <br><br> <div class=3D"y_msg_container">On 9/3/2014 12:30=
 PM, selpa'i wrote:<br>&gt; la .van. cu cusku<br>&gt;&gt; On Wed, Sep 03, 2=
014 at 08:44:55AM -0700, 'John E Clifford' via<br>&gt;&gt; lojban wrote:<br=
>&gt;&gt;&gt; Let's see how that line of objections, rather than ones to th=
e<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; cosmetics, can be met and turned into a positive discussi=
on of<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; Lojban.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I'm sorry, I might ha=
ve missed
 something here, but "It's all crap and<br>&gt;&gt; anyone could do better"=
 is no valid criticism pe'i<br>&gt;<br>&gt; If the goal is to make a langua=
ge that unambiguously encodes logic, then<br>&gt; that's relatively easy to=
 achieve. See xorban for one model that doesn't<br>&gt; add too much unnece=
ssary baggage. Lojban does achieves it too to some<br>&gt; degree, but it h=
as so much extras that most of the language is still<br>&gt; undefined. We =
cannot easily convert Lojban to logic due to that.<br><br>I need to note he=
re that if the goal is merely to encode logic, then <br>Lojban can probably=
 be called "successful" in that I believe that <br>anything expressible in =
logical notation can probably be represented in <br>Mex (the operators need=
ed for any given notation have not been defined, <br>but Mex is defined so =
as to allow innumerable sets of operators as well <br>as precedences).<br><=
br>So far as I know, no one in the community is interested in such a
 narrow <br>goal.<br><br>&gt; And what about simplicity? Here Gua\spi and X=
orban are the clear<br>&gt; winners, closely followed by Toaq Dzu, and far =
in the distance comes<br>&gt; Lojban. Just compare the sizes of their gramm=
ars to get a rough idea.<br><br>Of course part of the problem is that very =
few such languages have been <br>USED to the extent that Lojban has.&nbsp; =
Feature growth has come from usage.<br><br>lojbab<br><br><br><br>-- <br>You=
 received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "loj=
ban" group.<br>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails fro=
m it, send an email to lojban+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups=
.com." href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.">unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.</a><br>To post to this group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lo=
jban@googlegroups.com." href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com.">lojban@goo=
glegroups.com.</a><br>Visit this group at
 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<br>For more options, visit https://=
groups.google.com/d/optout.<br><br><br></div>  </div> </div>  </div> </div>=
</body></html>

<p></p>

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