Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 21:13:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Andrew Browne <dersaidin@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: [lojban] Re: What are the official goals of lojban?
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I have found a couple more sources relevant to the goals of Lojban.
I realize this thread is now a bit old, but I want to add them in the 
interest of completeness.


The LLG's bylaws state the purpose of the LLG.
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Bylaws+of+The+Logical+Language+Group,+Inc.
LLG is not Lojban. The goals of the LLG are not the goals of Lojban, but 
they may be related and relevant.

Section 1. Purpose. The Logical Language Group, Inc. is established to 
promote the scientific study of the relationships between language, thought 
and human culture; to investigate the nature of language and to determine 
the requirements for an artificially-engineered natural language; to 
implement and experiment with such a language; to devise and promote 
applications for this language in fields including but not limited to 
linguistics, psychology, philosophy, logic, mathematics, computer science, 
anthropology, sociology, education, and human biology; to conduct and 
support experimental and scholarly research in these fields as they may 
bear upon the problems of artificial language development; to communicate 
with and to educate interested persons and organizations about these 
activities; to devise and develop means and instruments needed for these 
activities; and to accumulate and publish the results of such studies and 
developments.


One of the things in this statement is: "determine the requirements for an 
artificially-engineered natural language".
This might be able to be interpreted as "determine the goals for lojban", 
except it does not specifically mention lojban or logical languages and 
these requirements would presumably also hold over constructed languages 
such as Esperanto, Klingon, Toki Pona, Quenya, etc. - as well as Lojban.
If this has been achieved it would also be of interest. However, I wonder 
if this statement is broader than intended, or if is too broad to be 
possible, or of the answer is equally broad and over generalized (i.e. "It 
facilitates communication.").


The LLG Baseline policy:
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Official+Baseline+Statement
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lojban/conversations/messages/17203

The LLG Baseline policy mentions/references "the engineering goals of the 
language" as well as "the design goals for the language".

If this review results in consensus agreement that certain changes are 
appropriate, to be consistent both with actual usage and the engineering 
goals of the language, they will be incorporated as part of the 
discontinuity between the existing provisional baselines and the actual 
design baseline covering the full language.


and

If usage has established a pattern clearly inconsistent with the existing 
documents, but consistent with the design goals for the language, the byfy 
reviewers will have the power to approve changes to the baseline to reflect 
that usage. A critical goal is to preserve the fundamental design goal that 
Lojban words have a unitary and self-consistent meaning.


Mostly this raises my original question, rather than answers it. However, 
one goal is noted: "Lojban words have a unitary and self-consistent 
meaning", but I believe this isn't the only goal (I think a language to 
solve this one and only goal would look very different).

These references to goals also emphasises the need for Lojban to have 
goals, for the language to be consistent.


Lojban: You're Doing It Wrong
http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=Lojban%3A+You%27re+Doing+It+Wrong

Further, we (the Lojban community as a whole) should adopt a set of goals 
for the language (we don't currently have those at all, just a set of 
design decisions from back in the day, which isn't the same thing), with 
"respecting how people happened to use the language" and "making sure the 
meaning of past usage doesn't change" being much lower on the goal list 
than they are now, and get on with actually fixing the language based on 
those goals.


Although not an official document, it is written by Robin - who would be 
aware of the goals if they existed.

This best answers my original question - we currently don't have official 
goals for the language.


Andrew / DerSaidin


On Monday, June 9, 2014 11:54:43 PM UTC+10, Andrew Browne wrote:
>
>
> What are the official goals of lojban?
>
> So out of all this, what are officially the goals of lojban?
>
> Thanks
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I have found a couple more sources relevant to the go=
als of Lojban.</div><div>I realize this thread is now a bit old, but I want=
 to add them in the interest of completeness.</div><div><br></div><div><br>=
</div><div><br></div><div>The LLG's bylaws state the purpose of the LLG.</d=
iv><div>http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Bylaws+of+The+Logical+Language+Group,+In=
c.</div><div>LLG is not Lojban. The goals of the LLG are not the goals of L=
ojban, but they may be related and relevant.</div><div><br></div><blockquot=
e style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div>Section 1.=
 Purpose. The Logical Language Group, Inc. is established to promote the sc=
ientific study of the relationships between language, thought and human cul=
ture; to investigate the nature of language and to determine the requiremen=
ts for an artificially-engineered natural language; to implement and experi=
ment with such a language; to devise and promote applications for this lang=
uage in fields including but not limited to linguistics, psychology, philos=
ophy, logic, mathematics, computer science, anthropology, sociology, educat=
ion, and human biology; to conduct and support experimental and scholarly r=
esearch in these fields as they may bear upon the problems of artificial la=
nguage development; to communicate with and to educate interested persons a=
nd organizations about these activities; to devise and develop means and in=
struments needed for these activities; and to accumulate and publish the re=
sults of such studies and developments.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>One of the things in this statement is: "determine the requirements for =
an artificially-engineered natural language".</div><div>This might be able =
to be interpreted as "determine the goals for lojban", except it does not s=
pecifically mention lojban or logical languages and these requirements woul=
d presumably also hold over constructed languages such as Esperanto, Klingo=
n, Toki Pona, Quenya, etc. - as well as Lojban.</div><div>If this has been =
achieved it would also be of interest. However, I wonder if this statement =
is broader than intended, or if is too broad to be possible, or of the answ=
er is equally broad and over generalized (i.e. "It facilitates communicatio=
n.").</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div=
><br></div><div><br></div><div>The LLG Baseline policy:</div><div>http://ww=
w.lojban.org/tiki/Official+Baseline+Statement</div><div>https://groups.yaho=
o.com/neo/groups/lojban/conversations/messages/17203</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>The LLG Baseline policy mentions/references "the engineering goals of th=
e language" as well as "the design goals for the language".</div><div><br><=
/div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;">=
<div>If this review results in consensus agreement that certain changes are=
 appropriate, to be consistent both with actual usage and the engineering g=
oals of the language, they will be incorporated as part of the discontinuit=
y between the existing provisional baselines and the actual design baseline=
 covering the full language.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>and</div=
><div><br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padd=
ing: 0px;"><div>If usage has established a pattern clearly inconsistent wit=
h the existing documents, but consistent with the design goals for the lang=
uage, the byfy reviewers will have the power to approve changes to the base=
line to reflect that usage. A critical goal is to preserve the fundamental =
design goal that Lojban words have a unitary and self-consistent meaning.</=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Mostly this raises my original questio=
n, rather than answers it. However, one goal is noted: "Lojban words have a=
 unitary and self-consistent meaning", but I believe this isn't the only go=
al (I think a language to solve this one and only goal would look very diff=
erent).</div><div><br></div><div>These references to goals also emphasises =
the need for Lojban to have goals, for the language to be consistent.</div>=
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<div><br></div><div>Lojban: You're Doing It Wrong</div><div>http://teddyb.o=
rg/robin/tiki-index.php?page=3DLojban%3A+You%27re+Doing+It+Wrong</div><div>=
<br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0=
px;"><div>Further, we (the Lojban community as a whole) should adopt a set =
of goals for the language (we don't currently have those at all, just a set=
 of design decisions from back in the day, which isn't the same thing), wit=
h "respecting how people happened to use the language" and "making sure the=
 meaning of past usage doesn't change" being much lower on the goal list th=
an they are now, and get on with actually fixing the language based on thos=
e goals.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Although not an official doc=
ument, it is written by Robin - who would be aware of the goals if they exi=
sted.</div><div><br></div><div>This best answers my original question - we =
currently don't have official goals for the language.</div><div><br></div><=
div><br></div><div>Andrew / DerSaidin</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><b=
r>On Monday, June 9, 2014 11:54:43 PM UTC+10, Andrew Browne wrote:<blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left:=
 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Wh=
at are the official goals of lojban?</div><div><br></div><div>So out of all=
 this, what are officially the goals of lojban?</div><div><br></div><div>Th=
anks</div></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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