Received: from mail-lb0-f188.google.com ([209.85.217.188]:43135) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XROwa-0001Or-8O for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 10:11:04 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f188.google.com with SMTP id l4sf422450lbv.5 for ; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 10:10:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=yCV8rLdlA48urfOGn7asFwq3Smz24cfApLEho0uOA6Q=; b=MdhACv6+okCw+fTQr+QlgVDI/RPdwmJTYgClAFJtSuNjScta+wM/n1uqA9sddYD9yp amtohagcoMLQHY5a9QWw+s5hOrIEEVA2a9aHJctp7AWIYC2B3BGYFWmemsr5DHdPQdzr VRvXN1xjryWvcW//yECFrZV8Ro2K6XB1sU/3kUSJQfZCWsm4+wkGYB4AYX4GopdxnC3U Xu4GrJ1Ea4Ea5Hi/UiBbEZXDS84kfpTtGc8NkybrtvWVCTXAzDqhKFCuPyZ11egY97KY jzToly04ZPskNvNuLKksRNWlMydZiHelxEPx1T1lB55Kvh/uaKhN6Vr6BEfbBsOuGOlx JDAw== X-Received: by 10.152.26.37 with SMTP id i5mr16765lag.35.1410282656747; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 10:10:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.116.99 with SMTP id jv3ls541145lab.54.gmail; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 10:10:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.6.195 with SMTP id d3mr4294laa.10.1410282655410; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 10:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x232.google.com (mail-we0-x232.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fc7si862660wic.2.2014.09.09.10.10.55 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Sep 2014 10:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::232; Received: by mail-we0-f178.google.com with SMTP id q58so4964975wes.37 for ; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 10:10:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.102.40 with SMTP id fl8mr31274128wib.17.1410282655278; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 10:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.102] (95-210-209-219.ip.skylogicnet.com. [95.210.209.219]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id y5sm15580555wje.32.2014.09.09.10.10.51 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Sep 2014 10:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <540F3494.5070803@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 19:10:44 +0200 From: Ilmen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: [lojban] {se me} X-Original-Sender: ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - coi ro do I recently discovered that {lo se me ko'a} isn't a valid method for=20 creating a description sumti from the special sumti slot introduced by=20 {me}. The reason is, {me} being a syntactically irregular predicate, it=20 actually has no x2 as such, and {me ko'a} is considered as a unary=20 predicate, which results in {lo se me ko'a} being semantically undefined. The best paraphrases I can think of that do not use experimental cmavo=20 are the following: =E2=80=A2 lo ckaji be lo ka ko'a me ce'u (ku) =E2=80=A2 zo'e noi ko'a me ke'a (ku'o) Both of the above are pretty awkward and/or long paraphrases for what=20 would have simply been {lo selbri be ko'a} with a regular predicate word. Therefore I'd like to know if any of you can think of a good way to turn=20 the relation {me} "X is/are among (the referents of) Y" into a regular=20 predicate word form (brivla). One possible solution could have been making a lujvo from {me}, but it=20 turns out that {me} has no rafsi. As for using {zei} (me zei ckaji or=20 whatever), this doesn't look like a very appealing solution for such a=20 basic and frequent predicate, as the resulting lexeme would be likely at=20 least four syllables long. Another possibility would be making an experimental gismu or a zi'evla.=20 Running la gimyzba on the translations of "among" in the 8~12 largest=20 world languages gives me {menre} as the best-scoring gismu form that=20 doesn't clash with any official gismu. ("menre" mostly comes=20 etymologically from the Spanish "entre", the Hindi "mem/men", the=20 English "among" and the Russian "sredi".) Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated. mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. 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