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Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership
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Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG, On 09/09/2014 18:30:
> The other problem is that the "development" is supposed to already be
> done. Long done. And for a lot of people, the idea that they might
> have to go to Microsoft Lojban 8.0 from 7.0 is enough to make them
> throw up their hands in disgust and turn away from the language. They
> might accept small tweaks to fix bugs in "Lojban XP", but they don't
> want to relearn anything.

It seems to me you're setting up a largely false dichotomy. Most of what re=
mains to be done is to complete the design where it is incomplete. So the c=
hoice is whether to do that explicitly or leave it to usage. Not much relea=
rning entailed by that. There is the additional choice of whether to make s=
implifications that require a handful of individuals to do some relearning =
now, for the benefit of making the task for all future learners much simple=
r, but that is a separate debate.

> People might have tolerated running across some new word on an IRC
> channel and looking it up; we deal with learning new vocabulary all
> the time in natural language. But they don't like someone telling
> them that the old way to do something is wrong, and there is a new
> and better way.

Are there still many that feel thus? I wonder if it's a myth that gets perp=
etuated because you propagate it so insistently.

In old usage, "le" was standardly not used in a baseline-compliant way; cf =
how "le nu", "le ka", "le du'u" used to be default in usage. In old and new=
 usage (for new usage, I'm relying on Selpa'i's observation), logical scope=
 of syntactic clausemates is generally ambiguous. How many people are going=
 to want to preserve old ways that aren't baseline-compliant or are rampant=
ly logically ambiguous?

> This project is some 60 years old and we have a lot of history of
> people explicitly leaving because of changes imposed from on-high.

Not in the history of Lojban proper, of course, because changes haven't bee=
n imposed from on-high. So all the folk leaving for the last 27 years have =
been leaving for other reasons; disgruntlement at the unfinished design and=
 the political sclerosis that prevents its completion must be the major rea=
son why people leave Lojban, out of all reasons that have to do with some s=
ort of disaffection with Lojban.

> More importantly, we have the history of dozens if not hundreds of
> conlangs whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't stop
> fiddling with the language design.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to identify these dozens if not hundreds of c=
onlangs whose usage would have spread if people had stopped fiddling with t=
he language design.

> At some point, you have to stop allowing changes EXCEPT by *natural*
> language processes (which aren't so much "reviewed" as "documented
> after the fact".
>
>> in my mind, there is no way Lojban can be "considered DONE as an
>> engineering effort".
>
> Then we are fundamentally at odds. It MUST be "done" at some point.
> Engineering must stop, and we move to usage.

Especially in the case of a language like Lojban, one expects that there wi=
ll always be a strong strand of prescriptivism, in areas where usage deviat=
es from the official design or from logic. Prescriptivism is a form of engi=
neering. It has a bad name in the domain of natlangs, mostly because actual=
 prescriptivists tend to be foolish, but to people attracted to Lojban by i=
ts explicit definition and ostensible logical basis, rational prescriptivis=
m is likely to be welcome.

>   The experimental gismu {kibro}
>
> never heard of it.
>
>   and cmavo
>> {di'ai}. vu'o po'onai.
>
> vu'o and po'onai should both be part of the baseline (not that I
> remember what the latter means; I am sure it was discussed back in
> the 90s).

It was discussed back in the 90s, but is it in CLL? I can't find a way to s=
earch CLL online (-- there must be one, but googling doesn't bring it up). =
It's not in CLL Ch 13 where po'o is introduced.

> I have no idea what di'ai is. That is the problem with
> experimental usages. They aren't documented, and people like me would
> have no idea what to do with the word if we run across it in text.

I went to the humungous effort of looking kibro and di'ai up in jbovlaste. =
To find jbovlaste, one googles "jbovlaste". Or, even quicker, google "jbovl=
aste kibro" and you get the answer in one step. For users of handheld devic=
es, Gleki has made an android jbovlaste app -- it's excellent! And it's dea=
d easy to use even for those of us who are weary at having to learn new tec=
hnology.

--And.

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