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Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership
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Gleki Arxokuna, On 10/09/2014 06:51:
> 2014-09-10 0:50 GMT+04:00 And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com <mailto:and.rost=
a@gmail.com>>:
>     In old usage, "le" was standardly not used in a baseline-compliant wa=
y; cf how "le nu", "le ka", "le du'u" used to be default in usage. In old a=
nd new usage (for new usage, I'm relying on Selpa'i's observation), logical=
 scope of syntactic clausemates is generally ambiguous. How many people are=
 going to want to preserve old ways that aren't baseline-compliant or are r=
ampantly logically ambiguous?
>
> The task is to adapt theory to facts, i.e. usage, not adapt reality
> to facts provided this doesn't lead to syntactic ambiguity which is a
> defining feature of lojban.

There are three forces that potentially shape and define what is to be deem=
ed correct:

1. usage
2. official codification
3. logic (mapping between phonological and logical forms), consistency, reg=
ularity, unambiguity, integrity

& possibly a fourth:

4. unofficial consensus of opinion (or of influential opinion)

(4) is important for English, maybe not for Lojban.

All can conflict. Which trumps which? For me it's 3>2>1. For Bob I hope (be=
cause it's a position I can respect) it's 1>2>3. What do you think it is?

At the time I ceased active involvement with Lojban I had come to the view =
that that the community was wedded to 1>2>3 or 2>1>3 with immutable 2, but =
now I see that there are currents of opinion -- much stronger than ever in =
my time -- unwilling to accept either of those. Surely the only foreseeable=
 outcomes are that the ultraconservative camp withers or that there is schi=
sm.

>         More importantly, we have the history of dozens if not hundreds o=
f
>         conlangs whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't stop
>         fiddling with the language design.
>
>     I think you'd be hard-pressed to identify these dozens if not hundred=
s of conlangs whose usage would have spread if people had stopped fiddling =
with the language design.
>
> He won't. I can confirm his words. I've got a lot of people from
> Russian group who immediately stopped learning Lojban when they
> learnt that CLL was no longer valid.

Bob was talking about conlangs not conlangers.

I suppose your Russian drop-outs must have been fervent devotees of {1|immu=
table2} > 3. What was it attracted them to Lojban in the first place, such =
deviation from that ranking quenched their interest?

> That's why any changes to basic gismu, to common usage is a way to
> the final destruction of the language as it happened to other
> conlangs.

You seem to have a strange notion of what language destruction is. You seem=
 to think that a language exists if and only if it has speakers in our worl=
d. I accept that that's not a nonsensical view, tho I do think it's utterly=
 wrong, but it's hard to have rational discussion if we use the same set of=
 terms with such fundamentally different and incompatible senses.

>     For users of handheld devices, Gleki has made an android jbovlaste ap=
p -- it's excellent!
>
> Huh?

There is a Google Play app maker called Vorgoron who made the app and gave =
it a description that says "Author - Gleki Arxokuna", which had misled me i=
nto thinking you were Vorgoron. Looking at Vorgoron's other apps, it seems =
likely that Vorgoron is Russian, so likely somebody you know.

--And.

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