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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 10:32:13 -0400
From: Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership
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I think it=E2=80=99s 3>1>2 for me, although I=E2=80=99m not exactly sure of=
 the distinction you=E2=80=99re drawing between =E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D and=
 =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=9D. And to keep 3 above 1, you need 2 to be able =
to slowly adapt to 1/4=E2=80=A6 so it=E2=80=99s intertwined. =20

mu=E2=80=99o mi=E2=80=99e la durka =20


On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 at 9:16 AM, And Rosta wrote:

> Gleki Arxokuna, On 10/09/2014 06:51:
> > 2014-09-10 0:50 GMT+04:00 And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com <mailto:and.ro=
sta@gmail.com>>:
> > In old usage, "le" was standardly not used in a baseline-compliant way;=
 cf how "le nu", "le ka", "le du'u" used to be default in usage. In old and=
 new usage (for new usage, I'm relying on Selpa'i's observation), logical s=
cope of syntactic clausemates is generally ambiguous. How many people are g=
oing to want to preserve old ways that aren't baseline-compliant or are ram=
pantly logically ambiguous?
> > =20
> > The task is to adapt theory to facts, i.e. usage, not adapt reality
> > to facts provided this doesn't lead to syntactic ambiguity which is a
> > defining feature of lojban.
> > =20
> =20
> =20
> There are three forces that potentially shape and define what is to be de=
emed correct:
> =20
> 1. usage
> 2. official codification
> 3. logic (mapping between phonological and logical forms), consistency, r=
egularity, unambiguity, integrity
> =20
> & possibly a fourth:
> =20
> 4. unofficial consensus of opinion (or of influential opinion)
> =20
> (4) is important for English, maybe not for Lojban.
> =20
> All can conflict. Which trumps which? For me it's 3>2>1. For Bob I hope (=
because it's a position I can respect) it's 1>2>3. What do you think it is?
> =20
> At the time I ceased active involvement with Lojban I had come to the vie=
w that that the community was wedded to 1>2>3 or 2>1>3 with immutable 2, bu=
t now I see that there are currents of opinion -- much stronger than ever i=
n my time -- unwilling to accept either of those. Surely the only foreseeab=
le outcomes are that the ultraconservative camp withers or that there is sc=
hism.
> =20
> > More importantly, we have the history of dozens if not hundreds of
> > conlangs whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't stop
> > fiddling with the language design.
> > =20
> > I think you'd be hard-pressed to identify these dozens if not hundreds =
of conlangs whose usage would have spread if people had stopped fiddling wi=
th the language design.
> > =20
> > He won't. I can confirm his words. I've got a lot of people from
> > Russian group who immediately stopped learning Lojban when they
> > learnt that CLL was no longer valid.
> > =20
> =20
> =20
> Bob was talking about conlangs not conlangers.
> =20
> I suppose your Russian drop-outs must have been fervent devotees of {1|im=
mutable2} > 3. What was it attracted them to Lojban in the first place, suc=
h deviation from that ranking quenched their interest?
> =20
> > That's why any changes to basic gismu, to common usage is a way to
> > the final destruction of the language as it happened to other
> > conlangs.
> > =20
> =20
> =20
> You seem to have a strange notion of what language destruction is. You se=
em to think that a language exists if and only if it has speakers in our wo=
rld. I accept that that's not a nonsensical view, tho I do think it's utter=
ly wrong, but it's hard to have rational discussion if we use the same set =
of terms with such fundamentally different and incompatible senses.
> =20
> > For users of handheld devices, Gleki has made an android jbovlaste app =
-- it's excellent!
> > =20
> > Huh?
> =20
> There is a Google Play app maker called Vorgoron who made the app and gav=
e it a description that says "Author - Gleki Arxokuna", which had misled me=
 into thinking you were Vorgoron. Looking at Vorgoron's other apps, it seem=
s likely that Vorgoron is Russian, so likely somebody you know.
> =20
> --And.
> =20
> -- =20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Go=
ogle Groups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/l=
ojban/_juGorRhWtI/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojba=
n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com)=
.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com (mailto:lojb=
an@googlegroups.com).
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> =20
> =20


--=20
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                <div>
                    I think it=E2=80=99s 3&gt;1&gt;2 for me, although I=E2=
=80=99m not exactly sure of the distinction you=E2=80=99re drawing between =
=E2=80=9Cusage=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=9D. And to keep 3 abov=
e 1, you need 2 to be able to slowly adapt to 1/4=E2=80=A6 so it=E2=80=99s =
intertwined.
                </div><div><br></div><div>mu=E2=80=99o mi=E2=80=99e la durk=
a</div>
                <div></div>
                =20
                <p style=3D"color: #A0A0A8;">On Wednesday, September 10, 20=
14 at 9:16 AM, And Rosta wrote:</p>
                <blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"border-left-style:solid;=
border-width:1px;margin-left:0px;padding-left:10px;">
                    <span><div><div><div>Gleki Arxokuna, On 10/09/2014 06:5=
1:</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div>2014-09-10 0:50 GMT+04:00 And R=
osta &lt;and.rosta@gmail.com &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com">mai=
lto:and.rosta@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;:</div><div>    In old usage, "le" was s=
tandardly not used in a baseline-compliant way; cf how "le nu", "le ka", "l=
e du'u" used to be default in usage. In old and new usage (for new usage, I=
'm relying on Selpa'i's observation), logical scope of syntactic clausemate=
s is generally ambiguous. How many people are going to want to preserve old=
 ways that aren't baseline-compliant or are rampantly logically ambiguous?<=
/div><div><br></div><div>The task is to adapt theory to facts, i.e. usage, =
not adapt reality</div><div>to facts provided this doesn't lead to syntacti=
c ambiguity which is a</div><div>defining feature of lojban.</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>There are three forces that potentially shape=
 and define what is to be deemed correct:</div><div><br></div><div>1. usage=
</div><div>2. official codification</div><div>3. logic (mapping between pho=
nological and logical forms), consistency, regularity, unambiguity, integri=
ty</div><div><br></div><div>&amp; possibly a fourth:</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>4. unofficial consensus of opinion (or of influential opinion)</div><div=
><br></div><div>(4) is important for English, maybe not for Lojban.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>All can conflict. Which trumps which? For me it's 3&gt;2&=
gt;1. For Bob I hope (because it's a position I can respect) it's 1&gt;2&gt=
;3. What do you think it is?</div><div><br></div><div>At the time I ceased =
active involvement with Lojban I had come to the view that that the communi=
ty was wedded to 1&gt;2&gt;3 or 2&gt;1&gt;3 with immutable 2, but now I see=
 that there are currents of opinion -- much stronger than ever in my time -=
- unwilling to accept either of those. Surely the only foreseeable outcomes=
 are that the ultraconservative camp withers or that there is schism.</div>=
<div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div>        More importantly=
, we have the history of dozens if not hundreds of</div><div>        conlan=
gs whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't stop</div><div>      =
  fiddling with the language design.</div><div><br></div><div>    I think y=
ou'd be hard-pressed to identify these dozens if not hundreds of conlangs w=
hose usage would have spread if people had stopped fiddling with the langua=
ge design.</div><div><br></div><div>He won't. I can confirm his words. I've=
 got a lot of people from</div><div>Russian group who immediately stopped l=
earning Lojban when they</div><div>learnt that CLL was no longer valid.</di=
v></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Bob was talking about conlangs not=
 conlangers.</div><div><br></div><div>I suppose your Russian drop-outs must=
 have been fervent devotees of {1|immutable2} &gt; 3. What was it attracted=
 them to Lojban in the first place, such deviation from that ranking quench=
ed their interest?</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div>=
That's why any changes to basic gismu, to common usage is a way to</div><di=
v>the final destruction of the language as it happened to other</div><div>c=
onlangs.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You seem to have a str=
ange notion of what language destruction is. You seem to think that a langu=
age exists if and only if it has speakers in our world. I accept that that'=
s not a nonsensical view, tho I do think it's utterly wrong, but it's hard =
to have rational discussion if we use the same set of terms with such funda=
mentally different and incompatible senses.</div><div><br></div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><div><div>    For users of handheld devices, Gleki has made =
an android jbovlaste app -- it's excellent!</div><div><br></div><div>Huh?</=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There is a Google Play app maker=
 called Vorgoron who made the app and gave it a description that says "Auth=
or - Gleki Arxokuna", which had misled me into thinking you were Vorgoron. =
Looking at Vorgoron's other apps, it seems likely that Vorgoron is Russian,=
 so likely somebody you know.</div><div><br></div><div>--And.</div><div><br=
></div><div>-- </div><div>You received this message because you are subscri=
bed to a topic in the Google Groups "lojban" group.</div><div>To unsubscrib=
e from this topic, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojba=
n/_juGorRhWtI/unsubscribe">https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/_juGorR=
hWtI/unsubscribe</a>.</div><div>To unsubscribe from this group and all its =
topics, send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.=
com">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.</div><div>To post to this gro=
up, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googleg=
roups.com</a>.</div><div>Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.googl=
e.com/group/lojban">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.</div><div>Fo=
r more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">https:=
//groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.</div></div></div></span>
                =20
                =20
                =20
                =20
                </blockquote>
                =20
                <div>
                    <br>
                </div>
           =20

<p></p>

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