Received: from mail-wi0-f185.google.com ([209.85.212.185]:56061) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XRiyz-0000du-U3 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:34:55 -0700 Received: by mail-wi0-f185.google.com with SMTP id cc10sf103766wib.22 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:34:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=KHNpptZ7tKDY93Qao8GBn5zgsgSzXuKqQokbaLlzrDM=; b=p9JFzIKAexi8Futte05vczkoLQYfOZELkvw5elK7cWf7da1O8mZ8rTSM06Ezd7bL9U T+PsjGgPuYXGJbIU8IgShu/7fRn1F3eLZFff51Kkd6XC1RqQMT0HnmbRO1XtZPmISaK7 UU790kZ7KjMQUsS5wTGDECQswZP+4oKlDmxgy+AoHlgEoEaCqzRBKEVEaY191i/qiio8 1c3epndNO0h5dzo6SM0zae7JeYep8LZi1qslwSVT7OYg/PYzQufVq8LsfesA/DBoNRTI sekePoxVB6/IJyXtddeSKd/e8ZuCMxkNkqCNhfWf6tpPQ3EZr7cIHKPaLATCGC9CY3D/ mOSw== X-Received: by 10.152.29.5 with SMTP id f5mr24910lah.11.1410359686963; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:34:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.42.195 with SMTP id q3ls615197lal.22.gmail; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:34:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.2.97 with SMTP id 1mr421694lat.6.1410359686046; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x230.google.com (mail-we0-x230.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j12si122995wie.2.2014.09.10.07.34.45 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::230; Received: by mail-we0-f176.google.com with SMTP id q58so5374341wes.35 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:34:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.95.8 with SMTP id dg8mr51440333wjb.1.1410359685868; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.89.193 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 07:34:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <427B7F67146340678BA2DDD9E75299C0@gmail.com> References: <25B055499F67420FA34794323F9A95AB@gmail.com> <540B374A.9040409@lojban.org> <540B8D1B.8050807@gmail.com> <540F391F.5050002@lojban.org> <540F6802.3070709@gmail.com> <54104F32.6090308@gmail.com> <427B7F67146340678BA2DDD9E75299C0@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 18:34:45 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc0f5614f1820502b6f41b X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7bdc0f5614f1820502b6f41b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-09-10 18:31 GMT+04:00 Alex Burka : > Gleki, you=E2=80=99re not making any sense. In one breath we=E2=80=99re h= olding a bonfire > and torching CLLs, while in the next we=E2=80=99re sitting twiddling our = thumbs > =E2=80=9Cwaiting for Robin to do something=E2=80=9D. Obviously, neither i= s true. And Lojban > is still here, in contradiction to what you keep saying, though we disagr= ee > on the reasons why it languishes. I wish we could have this argument > without hurling insults. > 1. You don't provide any alternative. Where is your amended CLL? There isn't one. Thus you are waiting for someone, what else can I assume? Yes, torching CLLs and doing nothing constructive. 2. In what form does Lojban exist? It exists despite these invalidations of CLL and continues to avert other people from contributing just because of xorlo and other changes. > mu=E2=80=99o mi=E2=80=99e la durka > > On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > > 2014-09-10 17:16 GMT+04:00 And Rosta : > > Gleki Arxokuna, On 10/09/2014 06:51: > > 2014-09-10 0:50 GMT+04:00 And Rosta and.rosta@gmail.com>>: > In old usage, "le" was standardly not used in a baseline-compliant > way; cf how "le nu", "le ka", "le du'u" used to be default in usage. In o= ld > and new usage (for new usage, I'm relying on Selpa'i's observation), > logical scope of syntactic clausemates is generally ambiguous. How many > people are going to want to preserve old ways that aren't > baseline-compliant or are rampantly logically ambiguous? > > The task is to adapt theory to facts, i.e. usage, not adapt reality > to facts provided this doesn't lead to syntactic ambiguity which is a > defining feature of lojban. > > > There are three forces that potentially shape and define what is to be > deemed correct: > > 1. usage > 2. official codification > 3. logic (mapping between phonological and logical forms), consistency, > regularity, unambiguity, integrity > > & possibly a fourth: > > 4. unofficial consensus of opinion (or of influential opinion) > > (4) is important for English, maybe not for Lojban. > > All can conflict. Which trumps which? For me it's 3>2>1. For Bob I hope > (because it's a position I can respect) it's 1>2>3. What do you think it = is? > > > For me it's 2. codification > 3. logic > 4. consensus > 1. usage > although 4. defines 1. and partially 3. > > > At the time I ceased active involvement with Lojban I had come to the vie= w > that that the community was wedded to 1>2>3 or 2>1>3 with immutable 2, bu= t > now I see that there are currents of opinion -- much stronger than ever i= n > my time -- unwilling to accept either of those. Surely the only foreseeab= le > outcomes are that the ultraconservative camp withers or that there is > schism. > > More importantly, we have the history of dozens if not hundreds o= f > conlangs whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't stop > fiddling with the language design. > > I think you'd be hard-pressed to identify these dozens if not hundred= s > of conlangs whose usage would have spread if people had stopped fiddling > with the language design. > > He won't. I can confirm his words. I've got a lot of people from > Russian group who immediately stopped learning Lojban when they > learnt that CLL was no longer valid. > > > Bob was talking about conlangs not conlangers. > > Usage of conlangs depends on users i.e. conlanger (although i preferred > to use "conlanger" for the term "inventor of conlang") > > > I suppose your Russian drop-outs must have been fervent devotees of > {1|immutable2} > 3. What was it attracted them to Lojban in the first > place, such deviation from that ranking quenched their interest? > > > There is CLL which is the reference grammar. > When someone says (and proves) that the refgram is no longer valid the > language stops to exist. > This way Lojban loses one of its selling points: the most > complete/described human language ever. > > CLL is the first (and the best imo) book teaching Lojban. > > What others offer instead of CLL? Nothing. Just waiting for Robin to do > something instead of them. > > > > That's why any changes to basic gismu, to common usage is a way to > the final destruction of the language as it happened to other > conlangs. > > > You seem to have a strange notion of what language destruction is. > > > Destruction is exactly when you ignore or invalidate one thing and not > providing alternatives. > Those tinkerers (including xorlofiers back in 2003) threw CLL away and > thus imo destroyed the original plan of a stable language and doomed the > language to the fate of Loglan. Only the lack of the third alternative (a > new loglang) prevented this community from complete dying. > > > > You seem to think that a language exists if and only if it has speakers i= n > our world. I accept that that's not a nonsensical view, tho I do think it= 's > utterly wrong, but it's hard to have rational discussion if we use the sa= me > set of terms with such fundamentally different and incompatible senses. > > > The existence of speakers doesn't matter. If you have selling points you > will get speakers. > The second selling point is monoparsing. > But they removed the first selling point. > > > > > For users of handheld devices, Gleki has made an android jbovlaste ap= p > -- it's excellent! > > Huh? > > > There is a Google Play app maker called Vorgoron who made the app and gav= e > it a description that says "Author - Gleki Arxokuna", which had misled me > into thinking you were Vorgoron. Looking at Vorgoron's other apps, it see= ms > likely that Vorgoron is Russian, so likely somebody you know. > > > Oh, I see. I just offered him to include a dictionary into their > distributions. I don't even remember who is the original author of that > dictionary. > > > > --And. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7bdc0f5614f1820502b6f41b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2014-09-10 18:31 GMT+04:00 Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>:
Gleki, you=E2=80=99re not making any sense. In one bre= ath we=E2=80=99re holding a bonfire and torching CLLs, while in the next we= =E2=80=99re sitting twiddling our thumbs =E2=80=9Cwaiting for Robin to do s= omething=E2=80=9D. Obviously, neither is true. And Lojban is still here, in= contradiction to what you keep saying, though we disagree on the reasons w= hy it languishes. I wish we could have this argument without hurling insult= s.

1. You don't provide any alter= native. Where is your amended CLL? There isn't one. Thus you are waitin= g for someone, what else can I assume?

Yes, torchi= ng CLLs and doing nothing constructive.

2. In what= form does Lojban exist? It exists despite these invalidations of CLL and c= ontinues to avert other people from contributing just because of xorlo and = other changes.


mu=E2=80=99o mi=E2=80=99e la durka
=20

On= Wednesday, September 10, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:



2014-09-10 17:16 GMT+04:00 And Rosta &= lt;and.rosta@gmail= .com>:
Gleki Arxokuna, On 1= 0/09/2014 06:51:
2014-09-10 0:50 GMT+04:00 And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com <mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com>>:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In old usage, "le" was standardly not used in a bas= eline-compliant way; cf how "le nu", "le ka", "le = du'u" used to be default in usage. In old and new usage (for new u= sage, I'm relying on Selpa'i's observation), logical scope of s= yntactic clausemates is generally ambiguous. How many people are going to w= ant to preserve old ways that aren't baseline-compliant or are rampantl= y logically ambiguous?

The task is to adapt theory to facts, i.e. usage, not adapt reality
to facts provided this doesn't lead to syntactic ambiguity which is a defining feature of lojban.

There are three forces that potentially shape and define what is to be deem= ed correct:

1. usage
2. official codification
3. logic (mapping between phonological and logical forms), consistency, reg= ularity, unambiguity, integrity

& possibly a fourth:

4. unofficial consensus of opinion (or of influential opinion)

(4) is important for English, maybe not for Lojban.

All can conflict. Which trumps which? For me it's 3>2>1. For Bob = I hope (because it's a position I can respect) it's 1>2>3. Wh= at do you think it is?

For me it&= #39;s 2. codification > 3. logic > 4. consensus > 1. usage
although 4. defines 1. and partially 3.


At the time I ceased active involvement with Lojban I had come to the view = that that the community was wedded to 1>2>3 or 2>1>3 with immut= able 2, but now I see that there are currents of opinion -- much stronger t= han ever in my time -- unwilling to accept either of those. Surely the only= foreseeable outcomes are that the ultraconservative camp withers or that t= here is schism.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 More importantly, we have the history of dozens= if not hundreds of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 conlangs whose usage has not spread because peo= ple wouldn't stop
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 fiddling with the language design.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think you'd be hard-pressed to identify these dozens if= not hundreds of conlangs whose usage would have spread if people had stopp= ed fiddling with the language design.

He won't. I can confirm his words. I've got a lot of people from Russian group who immediately stopped learning Lojban when they
learnt that CLL was no longer valid.

 Bob was talking about conlangs not conlangers.
U= sage of conlangs depends on users i.e. conlanger =C2=A0(although i preferre= d to use "conlanger" for the term "inventor of conlang"= )


I suppose your Russian drop-outs must have been fervent devotees of {1|immu= table2} > 3. What was it attracted them to Lojban in the first place, su= ch deviation from that ranking quenched their interest?
<= div>
There is CLL which is the reference grammar.
W= hen someone says (and proves) that the refgram is no longer valid the langu= age stops to exist.
This way Lojban loses one of its selling poin= ts: the most complete/described human language ever.

CLL is the first (and the best imo) book teaching Lojban.

=
What others offer instead of CLL? Nothing. Just waiting for Robi= n to do something instead of them.



That's why any changes to basic gismu, to common usage is a way to
the final destruction of the language as it happened to other
conlangs.

 You seem to have a strange notion of what language destruction is.

Destruction is exactly when you ignore or inv= alidate one thing and not providing alternatives.
Those tinkerers= (including xorlofiers back in 2003) threw CLL away and thus imo destroyed = the original plan of a stable language and doomed the language to the fate = of Loglan. Only the lack of the third alternative (a new loglang) prevented= this community from complete dying.

=C2=A0
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
You seem to think that a language exists if = and only if it has speakers in our world. I accept that that's not a no= nsensical view, tho I do think it's utterly wrong, but it's hard to= have rational discussion if we use the same set of terms with such fundame= ntally different and incompatible senses.

=
The existence of speakers doesn't matter. If you have selling poin= ts you will get speakers.
The second selling point is monoparsing= .
But they removed the first selling point.
=C2=A0<= /div>


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 For users of handheld devices, Gleki has made an android jbov= laste app -- it's excellent!

Huh?

 There is a Google Play app maker called Vorgoron who made the app and gave = it a description that says "Author - Gleki Arxokuna", which had m= isled me into thinking you were Vorgoron. Looking at Vorgoron's other a= pps, it seems likely that Vorgoron is Russian, so likely somebody you know.=

Oh, I see. I just offered him to inc= lude a dictionary into their distributions. I don't even remember who i= s the original author of that dictionary.



--And.

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=20 =20 =20 =20
=20

=20

--
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--
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--047d7bdc0f5614f1820502b6f41b--