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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 16:42:39 -0400
From: Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership
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On 9/10/2014 1:51 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
>     I think you'd be hard-pressed to identify these dozens if not
>     hundreds of conlangs whose usage would have spread if people had
>     stopped fiddling with the language design.
>
> He won't. I can confirm his words.
> I've got a lot of people from Russian group who immediately stopped
> learning Lojban when they learnt that CLL was no longer valid.
>
> With regret I have to acknowledge that Lojbab's task of creating a
> stable language failed when the not well thought out change called
> "xorlo" invalidated the refgram. May be it's still not too late to go
> back to pre-xorlo

If xorxes is correct then the refgram was not invalidated so much as 
made incomplete.  But I can't say, since I never really understood xorlo.

Still, you are the first person I have seen to call "xorlo" "not well 
thought out".  xorlo was by far the most thought about and discussed 
change proposal ever made to the language.  If it was "not well thought 
out" it speaks poorly for the *possibility* of there being a 
well-thought-out change

> Yet another example is Loglan.

Which of course is the primary language effort that I know about.  My 
knowledge of the impact of changes on other languages came second hand 
from people commenting on their reaction to changes in TLI Loglan and in 
Lojban.

> That's why any changes to basic gismu, to common usage is a way to the
> final destruction of the language as it happened to other conlangs.

Changes to gismu damn near killed Loglan in the early 1980s, and merely 
tweaking something like 100 rafsi in 1994 when they were not yet 
officially baselined and no one to my knowledge had systematically tried 
to memorize them (other than myself) caused an enormously strong protest 
such that only a fraction of the proposals were accepted MERELY on 
account of usage.

>     It was discussed back in the 90s, but is it in CLL? I can't find a
>     way to search CLL online (-- there must be one, but googling doesn't
>     bring it up). It's not in CLL Ch 13 where po'o is introduced.

I found And himself discussing it with xorxes in Feb 1996.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/lojban/po$27onai/lojban/4quvrqL8Ops/J_8GPjzhr3YJ

That may have been too late to get into CLL, especially since the 
discussion seems to have been about translating the idiosyncrasies of 
the English word(s) "only" and "except", rather than a discussion of 
what was needed in Lojban on its own.

>     I went to the humungous effort of looking kibro and di'ai up in
>     jbovlaste. To find jbovlaste, one googles "jbovlaste". Or, even
>     quicker, google "jbovlaste kibro" and you get the answer in one
>     step. For users of handheld devices, Gleki has made an android
>     jbovlaste app -- it's excellent!
>
> Huh?

%^)

lojbab

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