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[216.39.63.214]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id pp6si615053pac.0.2014.09.10.16.44.55 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Sep 2014 16:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.214 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.214; Received: from [216.39.60.176] by nm6.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Sep 2014 23:44:55 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.233] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Sep 2014 23:44:55 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1004.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Sep 2014 23:44:55 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 67057.95389.bm@omp1004.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 32223 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Sep 2014 23:44:54 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: H406X4wVM1lsmsZa1qwuW81DRZ4UR0Ax2AewWOca4kybwsj R1dQAzBWpW411h2w4nuwWJfqITotqM5x7mrxG.WHiFbwqL5UwyX8g2j.gSls Vc_J9ByPG5GEBo0V_g11sPvZWterimvwakkdETWT92wn7QjIDb0WfrWbspwB 7SLvL0_UhyiQWQz84q_w0kPwiGHrRQwyEqlE_g7MujRHQMxQdd5Ln0BrfedH ZnHE1sgWmJujJPmCDTYQ322wtC4_m0QVMLOJZ7KfO696D1ppaze.tj46xMkv TGpt2IHfs.nPBOLpTSa5MQaynRHjI3A82QKdQfuEKqK1ZJpKi0s4Sg8vP2_n KVv0040faQxhE9mYjIncJHprF0iQR0Cck5q3P1S3orzs_9meMGFJuzWeG.pt _1HpXYz1kSvO5M.qTdx9zhgX0lId3jJ7tRakhHLndxxI9TeaRKP0RKYHU4ww XzbAhgKjHLNwOd8MSaEn0BuMt_GTdpgAZzBE3u.lr.IVZzY9.aeTpC.c1npc 85G65E2MMBYYTX8tUF7kZ5IVodIDnXLabYOWDgIUIOIKoXNIWL3Axx2D_Ljw vLunYsllvZ5DMOVQJy4vvYvukHTJswujbuVoGUAgxYon.oMOH6o9e0YeUWBK yR.88QtGY7rwefS7pbcDHyExVCjZe58C4Z6zQ7Z2jHgGrATiZjrdl_w512Sf BKVqmrE_nJkq151.zuC12n_ZHamJ.jkaJP4RYhACs Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 16:44:54 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,QSBtb2Rlc3QgcHJvcG9zYWwgZm9yIGEgd2F5IGZvcndhcmQgdG9nZXRoZXIuClNvbWUgc2F5IExvamJhbiBqdXN0IG5lZWRzIGEgYml0IG1vcmUgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24sIHNvbWUgc2F5IGl0IG5lZWRzIGEgbnVtYmVyIG9mIGNoYW5nZXMsIHNvIHNheSBpdCBuZWVkcyBzY3JhcGluZyBhbmQgYSBmcmVzaCBzdGFydC4gTmVlZHMgZm9yIHdoYXQsIHByYXk_ICBUaG91Z2ggc29tZSBzZWVtIHVuaGFwcHkgKEkgY2FuJ3QgdGhpbmsgd2h5KSB3aXRoIHRoaXMgY2hhcmFjdGVyaXphdGlvbiwgdGhlIHJlYXNvbiBmb3IBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <25B055499F67420FA34794323F9A95AB@gmail.com> <540B374A.9040409@lojban.org> <540B8D1B.8050807@gmail.com> <540F391F.5050002@lojban.org> <336d2f55-fba7-46d5-8a8a-332e0dd24f39@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1410392694.38855.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 16:44:54 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.214 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-204173969-74795766-1410392694=:38855" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ---204173969-74795766-1410392694=:38855 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A modest proposal for a way forward together. Some say Lojban just needs a bit more description, some say it needs a numb= er of changes, so say it needs scraping and a fresh start. Needs for what, = pray? Though some seem unhappy (I can't think why) with this characterizat= ion, the reason for Lojban is orthoparsing. Does Lojban have this propert= y? There is scarcely a demonstration of monoparsing, let alone that the re= sulting structure maps to a unique formula of logic, and far from that it i= s the right unique structure. So, let's get together and prove. In the pr= ocess, we will find whatpartsof the current definition need filling in, bec= ause they will be points where the sought algorithm lacks input. Further, = the development of the algorithm will guide what form the additions should = take. The same will be true if there are parts that are just wrong, don't = fit in with the program. In the end, we will have a complete description o= f a Lojban pretty close (I assume, but then, ...) to the present one which will demonstrably do what it claims to do and will differ from the p= resent one only in filling in what was left out (or had not yet gotten in) = and in corecting what was wrong before. Wrong in a fairly objective way --= not just inelegant or some aesthetic of political consideration but becaus= e it got in the way of the project. This seems to be a project to satisfy = everyone (well, there is probably a perfectionist somewhere who will not ac= cept a finished functioning language while he can still dream a"perfect" bu= t unbegun one). As a side result, the work on the algorithm will probably = produce a G&T grammar for Lojban as well, giving a complete description in = yet another linguistic theory. On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:20 PM, Dustin Lacewell wrote: =20 TR NS, This is the unifying reason the FAR MAJORITY of conlangs die! Accept this a= t face value! On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 4:02 PM, TR NS wrote: > >On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 1:30:07 PM UTC-4, lojbab wrote: > >>This project is some 60 years old and we have a lot of history of people= =20 >>explicitly leaving because of changes imposed from on-high. More=20 >>importantly, we have the history of dozens if not hundreds of conlangs=20 >>whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't stop fiddling with=20 >>the language design. Those that have survived and spread have stopped=20 >>being developed, and are simply USED. =20 >> > > >Do you truly believe people would leave the language if a change was made = form "on-high" if it were a clear improvement? Just because it is a change? > > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Goo= gle Groups "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lo= jban/_juGorRhWtI/unsubscribe. >To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---204173969-74795766-1410392694=:38855 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A modest proposal for a way forward together.
Some say Lojba= n just needs a bit more description, some say it needs a number of changes,= so say it needs scraping and a fresh start. Needs for what, pray?  Th= ough some seem unhappy (I can't think why) with this characterization, the = reason for Lojban is orthoparsing.   Does Lojban have this property? &= nbsp;There is scarcely a demonstration of monoparsing, let alone that the r= esulting structure maps to a unique formula of logic, and far from that it = is the right unique structure.  So, let's get together and prove.  In the process, we will find whatpartsof the current definition need= filling in, because they will be points where the sought algorithm lacks i= nput.  Further, the development of the algorithm will guide what form = the additions should take.  The same will be true if there are parts t= hat are just wrong, don't fit in with the program.  In the end, we wil= l have a complete description of a Lojban pretty close (I assume, but then,= ...) to the present one which will demonstrably do what it claims to do an= d will differ from the present one only in filling in what was left out (or= had not yet gotten in) and in corecting what was wrong before.  Wrong= in a fairly objective way -- not just inelegant or some aesthetic of polit= ical consideration but because it got in the way of the project.  This= seems to be a project to satisfy everyone (well, there is probably a perfe= ctionist somewhere who will not accept a finished functioning language while he can still dream a"perfect" but unbegun one).  As a = side result, the work on the algorithm will probably produce a G&T gram= mar for Lojban as well, giving a complete description in yet another lingui= stic theory.


=
On Wednesday, September= 10, 2014 6:20 PM, Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com> wrote:
<= /font>


TR NS,

This i= s the unifying reason the FAR MAJORITY of conlangs die! Accept this at face value!

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 4:02 PM,= TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:


On Tuesday, September 9, 201= 4 1:30:07 PM UTC-4, lojbab wrote:

This project is some 60 years old and= we have a lot of history of people=20
explicitly leaving because of changes imposed from on-hi= gh.  More=20
importantly, we have the history of dozens if not hundre= ds of conlangs=20
whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't stop = fiddling with=20
the language design.  Those that have survived and = spread have stopped=20
being developed, and are simply USED.  

Do you truly believe= people would leave the language if a change was made form "on-high" if it = were a clear improvement? Just because it is a change?

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