Received: from mail-wi0-f184.google.com ([209.85.212.184]:39182) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XRw8X-0007yd-QL for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:37:39 -0700 Received: by mail-wi0-f184.google.com with SMTP id em10sf343537wid.11 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:37:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=wz+2Rt5kVCTJtJH7DFIaSF5lmPSpd00cOXv6aOmBf3k=; b=Hxic8R1/RT2Es2lzir5Z0bIv8Cde4YyLOW/XfbHt27/YXXoapCIDi3NPekC/bbh4oC EUDm9fqI5BAVIqHsI9DK+F/1kXmh6mfCugq7ZhC+BWN/8ZfZ/ACLok7bJoNz79p7Wj2O qoi53j7R9AXR7xH7egmp6lzlG9i0i+ui0cdLZF/bbM2sAv927SnXIQkhx9jgeRdbsQIU /TaoMVSI4OHz/4jN4piBj3F6aTaD0sX5+V/aiPLr6npIC6TOw4JyGnBBage5+rytWtNR +AzaA81S3ab7+Rz/HXyA4Wph8QG+BOsx7q+5nFmeXhyCgEQ5Ek2kmxAoddPwOIiCesHk KNQg== X-Received: by 10.180.106.97 with SMTP id gt1mr112878wib.11.1410410250773; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:37:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.108.109 with SMTP id hj13ls789439wib.17.canary; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:37:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.221.169 with SMTP id qf9mr3888330wic.5.1410410250164; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x229.google.com (mail-wi0-x229.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f9si48633wib.2.2014.09.10.21.37.30 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::229; Received: by mail-wi0-f169.google.com with SMTP id cc10so520461wib.4 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:37:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.63.205 with SMTP id i13mr54555908wjs.74.1410410250016; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.214.3 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.214.3 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 21:37:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1410392694.38855.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <25B055499F67420FA34794323F9A95AB@gmail.com> <540B374A.9040409@lojban.org> <540B8D1B.8050807@gmail.com> <540F391F.5050002@lojban.org> <336d2f55-fba7-46d5-8a8a-332e0dd24f39@googlegroups.com> <1410392694.38855.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 00:37:29 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership From: Alex Burka To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: durka42@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of durka42@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=durka42@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7ba97a80f0a1360502c2b983 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7ba97a80f0a1360502c2b983 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 First, we should stop pretending that everyone thinks they are just filling in holes in the language. Change proposals do exist. And not all of the "holes" are necessarily going to pertain to the logical underpinning, it sends to me. That said, this sounds like a noble quest -- it'd be great to have a proof that Lojban actually is a logical language. Based on the number of terms I understood in your email, I'm unfortunately not going to have the time or skill to contribute, so I'll focus my efforts in other parts of Lojbanistan, but I wish you well. mu'o mi'e la durka On Sep 10, 2014 7:44 PM, "'John E Clifford' via lojban" < lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > A modest proposal for a way forward together. > Some say Lojban just needs a bit more description, some say it needs a > number of changes, so say it needs scraping and a fresh start. Needs for > what, pray? Though some seem unhappy (I can't think why) with this > characterization, the reason for Lojban is orthoparsing. Does Lojban have > this property? There is scarcely a demonstration of monoparsing, let alone > that the resulting structure maps to a unique formula of logic, and far > from that it is the right unique structure. So, let's get together and > prove. In the process, we will find whatpartsof the current definition > need filling in, because they will be points where the sought algorithm > lacks input. Further, the development of the algorithm will guide what > form the additions should take. The same will be true if there are parts > that are just wrong, don't fit in with the program. In the end, we will > have a complete description of a Lojban pretty close (I assume, but then, > ...) to the present one which will demonstrably do what it claims to do and > will differ from the present one only in filling in what was left out (or > had not yet gotten in) and in corecting what was wrong before. Wrong in a > fairly objective way -- not just inelegant or some aesthetic of political > consideration but because it got in the way of the project. This seems to > be a project to satisfy everyone (well, there is probably a perfectionist > somewhere who will not accept a finished functioning language while he can > still dream a"perfect" but unbegun one). As a side result, the work on the > algorithm will probably produce a G&T grammar for Lojban as well, giving a > complete description in yet another linguistic theory. > > > On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:20 PM, Dustin Lacewell < > dlacewell@gmail.com> wrote: > > > TR NS, > > This is the unifying reason the FAR MAJORITY of conlangs die! Accept this > at face value! > > On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 4:02 PM, TR NS wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 1:30:07 PM UTC-4, lojbab wrote: > > > This project is some 60 years old and we have a lot of history of people > explicitly leaving because of changes imposed from on-high. More > importantly, we have the history of dozens if not hundreds of conlangs > whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't stop fiddling with > the language design. Those that have survived and spread have stopped > being developed, and are simply USED. > > > Do you truly believe people would leave the language if a change was made > form "on-high" if it were a clear improvement? Just because it is a change? > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7ba97a80f0a1360502c2b983 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

First, we should stop pretending that everyone thinks they a= re just filling in holes in the language. Change proposals do exist. And no= t all of the "holes" are necessarily going to pertain to the logi= cal underpinning, it sends to me. That said, this sounds like a noble quest= -- it'd be great to have a proof that Lojban actually is a logical lan= guage. Based on the number of terms I understood in your email, I'm unf= ortunately not going to have the time or skill to contribute, so I'll f= ocus my efforts in other parts of Lojbanistan, but I wish you well.

mu'o mi'e la durka

On Sep 10, 2014 7:44 PM, "'John E Cliff= ord' via lojban" <lo= jban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
A modest proposal for a way forward together.
Some say Loj= ban just needs a bit more description, some say it needs a number of change= s, so say it needs scraping and a fresh start. Needs for what, pray? =C2=A0= Though some seem unhappy (I can't think why) with this characterization= , the reason for Lojban is orthoparsing. =C2=A0 Does Lojban have this prope= rty? =C2=A0There is scarcely a demonstration of monoparsing, let alone that= the resulting structure maps to a unique formula of logic, and far from th= at it is the right unique structure. =C2=A0So, let's get together and p= rove. =C2=A0In the process, we will find whatpartsof the current definition need= filling in, because they will be points where the sought algorithm lacks i= nput. =C2=A0Further, the development of the algorithm will guide what form = the additions should take. =C2=A0The same will be true if there are parts t= hat are just wrong, don't fit in with the program. =C2=A0In the end, we= will have a complete description of a Lojban pretty close (I assume, but t= hen, ...) to the present one which will demonstrably do what it claims to d= o and will differ from the present one only in filling in what was left out= (or had not yet gotten in) and in corecting what was wrong before. =C2=A0W= rong in a fairly objective way -- not just inelegant or some aesthetic of p= olitical consideration but because it got in the way of the project. =C2=A0= This seems to be a project to satisfy everyone (well, there is probably a p= erfectionist somewhere who will not accept a finished functioning language while he can still dream a"perfect" but unbegun one). = =C2=A0As a side result, the work on the algorithm will probably produce a G= &T grammar for Lojban as well, giving a complete description in yet ano= ther linguistic theory.


On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:20 PM, Dustin Lacewell = <dlacewell@gmai= l.com> wrote:


TR NS,

This is the unifying reas= on the FAR MAJORITY of conlangs die! Accept this at face value!

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 4:0= 2 PM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:


On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 1:30:07 PM UTC-= 4, lojbab wrote:

This project is= some 60 years old and we have a lot of history of people=20
explicitly leaving because of changes imposed from on-hi= gh. =C2=A0More=20
importantly, we have the history of dozens if not hundre= ds of conlangs=20
whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't s= top fiddling with=20
the language design. =C2=A0Those that have survived and = spread have stopped=20
being developed, and are simply USED. =C2=A0

Do you truly believe= people would leave the language if a change was made form "on-high&qu= ot; if it were a clear improvement? Just because it is a change?
=
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To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.= com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.= com.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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