Received: from mail-la0-f57.google.com ([209.85.215.57]:34986) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XRxg0-0008T4-Fn for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:16:17 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f57.google.com with SMTP id ge10sf231182lab.2 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:16:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=hzeDf5CstqnBn80PoZstzjRctixVEjU+kOCzObze8vA=; b=oQD711q5dgWckhl3tie8LZNaTBG717lcZjUv+9G+pMt2V/98PUAsymfsrFBebRRFPO 6ddUaoYrJa6aG76JGkAAjSBDtSkDCn7NHY1W24O5EmU7wYwB8XB6iqWH/T6uVJHvjTKB kb5fnPKwJFou7CL442xRlSdKrmq4DQe4Z7UEAG0dIiYG6Zcnqv50cN38Bj8uF0SH3JAO JhBIAsZ9wsDMiY/P29+VMRtXiHHy0hRX1rzTCYZaQ9dNNfEj10SPxFwJbE6RqH1zUgJk i3GVu58U3uafKeNlKAMFbU+EpqAsfnzeehKfZfGkv3rHC2BQLZwS02nJrTBo5qgEKAep 6r8Q== X-Received: by 10.153.11.171 with SMTP id ej11mr1768lad.18.1410416168872; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:16:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.7.74 with SMTP id h10ls23055laa.103.gmail; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:16:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.1.6 with SMTP id 6mr109191lai.3.1410416167699; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x234.google.com (mail-we0-x234.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p7si401382wiz.1.2014.09.10.23.16.07 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::234; Received: by mail-we0-x234.google.com with SMTP id t60so5146106wes.25 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:16:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.94.161 with SMTP id dd1mr42337605wib.22.1410416167532; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.89.193 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:16:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5410B7BF.9030005@lojban.org> References: <25B055499F67420FA34794323F9A95AB@gmail.com> <540B374A.9040409@lojban.org> <540B8D1B.8050807@gmail.com> <540F391F.5050002@lojban.org> <540F6802.3070709@gmail.com> <5410B7BF.9030005@lojban.org> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 10:16:07 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04462e9ea6bf760502c41a88 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d04462e9ea6bf760502c41a88 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2014-09-11 0:42 GMT+04:00 Robert LeChevalier : > On 9/10/2014 1:51 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > >> I think you'd be hard-pressed to identify these dozens if not >> hundreds of conlangs whose usage would have spread if people had >> stopped fiddling with the language design. >> >> He won't. I can confirm his words. >> I've got a lot of people from Russian group who immediately stopped >> learning Lojban when they learnt that CLL was no longer valid. >> >> With regret I have to acknowledge that Lojbab's task of creating a >> stable language failed when the not well thought out change called >> "xorlo" invalidated the refgram. May be it's still not too late to go >> back to pre-xorlo >> > > If xorxes is correct then the refgram was not invalidated so much as made > incomplete. But I can't say, since I never really understood xorlo. > > Still, you are the first person I have seen to call "xorlo" "not well > thought out". xorlo was by far the most thought about and discussed change > proposal ever made to the language. If it was "not well thought out" it > speaks poorly for the *possibility* of there being a well-thought-out change It's not well thought out in the sense that nowadays most people use {lo} and use {le} quite less. The well thought out change would be clearly understanding what is wanted and then adapting it to what is already described in CLL. Thus e.g. {le} could be redefined as what is {lo} in post-xorlo. Thus most examples in CLL would be preserved. Some use {le} in referential sense today (which is needed more seldom). However, for that a better reform would just suggest a new cmavo rather than damaging the usage of existing cmavo. All these change to the basic and mostly used cmavo in the language invalidated CLL and diverted a lot of people from Lojban when they wanted to delve into it deeper. In fact their first phrases like {mi nelci le nu limna} are always corrected by "experts" which confuses newbies. If there was a new corrected CLL (that you can download and buy in paper form) there would be no such problems. But nobody provided a corrected refgram, a corrected tutorial (there is a new one but nitcion's is still online and continues to confuse people). That's why the fears of ruining the language because of changes are now confirmed after just one single change. I don't know how many people already bought CLL but probably the new one will be ready soon so that most pressing changes can be quickly introduced and side issues can be ignored letting the usage and logic decide afterwards. > > > Yet another example is Loglan. >> > > Which of course is the primary language effort that I know about. My > knowledge of the impact of changes on other languages came second hand from > people commenting on their reaction to changes in TLI Loglan and in Lojban. The history repeats itself. > > That's why any changes to basic gismu, to common usage is a way to the >> final destruction of the language as it happened to other conlangs. >> > > Changes to gismu damn near killed Loglan in the early 1980s, and merely > tweaking something like 100 rafsi in 1994 when they were not yet officially > baselined and no one to my knowledge had systematically tried to memorize > them (other than myself) caused an enormously strong protest such that only > a fraction of the proposals were accepted MERELY on account of usage. > > It was discussed back in the 90s, but is it in CLL? I can't find a >> way to search CLL online (-- there must be one, but googling doesn't >> bring it up). It's not in CLL Ch 13 where po'o is introduced. >> > > I found And himself discussing it with xorxes in Feb 1996. > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/lojban/ > po$27onai/lojban/4quvrqL8Ops/J_8GPjzhr3YJ > > That may have been too late to get into CLL, especially since the > discussion seems to have been about translating the idiosyncrasies of the > English word(s) "only" and "except", rather than a discussion of what was > needed in Lojban on its own. > > I went to the humungous effort of looking kibro and di'ai up in >> jbovlaste. To find jbovlaste, one googles "jbovlaste". Or, even >> quicker, google "jbovlaste kibro" and you get the answer in one >> step. For users of handheld devices, Gleki has made an android >> jbovlaste app -- it's excellent! >> >> Huh? >> > > %^) > > lojbab > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d04462e9ea6bf760502c41a88 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2014-09-11 0:42 GMT+04:00 Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>= ;:
On 9/10/2014 1= :51 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think you'd be hard-pressed to identify these dozens if= not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 hundreds of conlangs whose usage would have spread if people = had
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stopped fiddling with the language design.

 He won't. I can confirm his words.
I've got a lot of people from Russian group who immediately stopped
learning Lojban when they learnt that CLL was no longer valid.

 With regret I have to acknowledge that Lojbab's task of creating a
stable language failed when the not well thought out change called
"xorlo" invalidated the refgram. May be it's still not too la= te to go
back to pre-xorlo

If xorxes is correct then the refgram was not invalidated so much as made i= ncomplete.=C2=A0 But I can't say, since I never really understood xorlo= .

Still, you are the first person I have seen to call "xorlo" "= ;not well thought out".=C2=A0 xorlo was by far the most thought about = and discussed change proposal ever made to the language.=C2=A0 If it was &q= uot;not well thought out" it speaks poorly for the *possibility* of th= ere being a well-thought-out change

It'= s not well thought out in the sense that nowadays most people use {lo} and = use {le} quite less. The well thought out change would be clearly understan= ding what is wanted and then adapting it to what is already described in CL= L.

Thus e.g. {le} could be redefined as what is {l= o} in post-xorlo. Thus most examples in CLL would be preserved.
<= br>
Some use {le} in referential sense today (which is needed mor= e seldom). However, for that a better reform would just suggest a new cmavo= rather than damaging the usage of existing cmavo.

All these change to the basic and mostly used cmavo in the language invali= dated CLL and diverted a lot of people from Lojban when they wanted to delv= e into it deeper.
In fact their first phrases like {mi nelci le n= u limna} are always corrected by "experts" which confuses newbies= .

If there was a new corrected CLL (that you can d= ownload and buy in paper form) there would be no such problems.
<= br>
But nobody provided a corrected refgram, a corrected tutorial= (there is a new one but nitcion's is still online and =C2=A0continues = to confuse people).

That's why the fears of ru= ining the language because of changes are now confirmed after just one sing= le change.

I don't know how many people alread= y bought CLL but probably the new one will be ready soon so that most press= ing changes can be quickly introduced and side issues can be ignored lettin= g the usage and logic decide afterwards.


Yet another example is Loglan.

Which of course is the primary language effort that I know about.=C2=A0 My = knowledge of the impact of changes on other languages came second hand from= people commenting on their reaction to changes in TLI Loglan and in Lojban= .

The history repeats itself.


That's why any changes to basic gismu, to common usage is a way to the<= br> final destruction of the language as it happened to other conlangs.

 Changes to gismu damn near killed Loglan in the early 1980s, and merely twe= aking something like 100 rafsi in 1994 when they were not yet officially ba= selined and no one to my knowledge had systematically tried to memorize the= m (other than myself) caused an enormously strong protest such that only a = fraction of the proposals were accepted MERELY on account of usage.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It was discussed back in the 90s, but is it in CLL? I can'= ;t find a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 way to search CLL online (-- there must be one, but googling = doesn't
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bring it up). It's not in CLL Ch 13 where po'o is int= roduced.

 I found And himself discussing it with xorxes in Feb 1996.

https://groups.googl= e.com/forum/?hl=3Den#!searchin/lojban/po$27onai/lojban/4quvrq= L8Ops/J_8GPjzhr3YJ

That may have been too late to get into CLL, especially since the discussio= n seems to have been about translating the idiosyncrasies of the English wo= rd(s) "only" and "except", rather than a discussion of = what was needed in Lojban on its own.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I went to the humungous effort of looking kibro and di'ai= up in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 jbovlaste. To find jbovlaste, one googles "jbovlaste&quo= t;. Or, even
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 quicker, google "jbovlaste kibro" and you get the a= nswer in one
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 step. For users of handheld devices, Gleki has made an androi= d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 jbovlaste app -- it's excellent!

 Huh?

%^)

lojbab


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--f46d04462e9ea6bf760502c41a88--