Received: from mail-lb0-f184.google.com ([209.85.217.184]:54526) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XRxn8-0008VX-Qd for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:23:40 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f184.google.com with SMTP id z11sf730523lbi.11 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:23:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=rFDKDHmt0CLjoD24nMm/EFZbEqBBzilCebIJO8xQZ70=; b=IKdjqcj3rAGCnMFBTglsz2553pBeR2Ez69RXffTDYt7AasUYBx26HIPRe+vPzvclas Y/nHvJKAieuz36T2zpcQNBJtsEpApAh28vwGtDdonFbAPF9jj+HWLXFdCK0enEnUt/gF xNEcQU7yJcEOBcDVaFWu8+Icck/p09FuF1QF6+iaxAS140Gwr0hmfjoHUF0olBEjdlN6 o7l7yS5LfobU2KEtvF4ZliESJ2pzdmnfFUTgHsBx1iIldMTSc9JbZd3MEtCpMxx066Lr UWBbYzyJvcSIrZTZJQm4NCLiqTYaxAMoxsxe5HLZ2Tx07UlrpIj5oXSCBlVeX7iGVEKU hV/Q== X-Received: by 10.152.170.225 with SMTP id ap1mr5866lac.9.1410416611402; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:23:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.88.8 with SMTP id bc8ls23012lab.86.gmail; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:23:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.21.137 with SMTP id v9mr1031821lae.1.1410416610157; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x231.google.com (mail-wg0-x231.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f9si59740wib.2.2014.09.10.23.23.30 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::231; Received: by mail-wg0-f49.google.com with SMTP id m15so5550007wgh.32 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:23:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.82.72 with SMTP id g8mr4388541wiy.79.1410416610016; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.89.193 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Sep 2014 23:23:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1410392694.38855.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <25B055499F67420FA34794323F9A95AB@gmail.com> <540B374A.9040409@lojban.org> <540B8D1B.8050807@gmail.com> <540F391F.5050002@lojban.org> <336d2f55-fba7-46d5-8a8a-332e0dd24f39@googlegroups.com> <1410392694.38855.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 10:23:29 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae9cc98620688350502c4353b X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --14dae9cc98620688350502c4353b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2014-09-11 3:44 GMT+04:00 'John E Clifford' via lojban < lojban@googlegroups.com>: > A modest proposal for a way forward together. > Some say Lojban just needs a bit more description, some say it needs a > number of changes, so say it needs scraping and a fresh start. > For me Lojban first needs an up to date description even if this description is incomplete. E.g. I wouldn't mind if "font switching" cmavo were removed from the new CLL. However, outside official documentation there can be any number of super-complete unofficial refgrams, papers and tutorials. And I don't care how many of them would exist (in fact there are plenty of them in the wiki already). Voting and usage would suggest adding those additions into future versions of CLL (CLL 3.0 and higher). > Needs for what, pray? Though some seem unhappy (I can't think why) with > this characterization, the reason for Lojban is orthoparsing. Does Lojban > have this property? There is scarcely a demonstration of monoparsing, let > alone that the resulting structure maps to a unique formula of logic, and > far from that it is the right unique structure. So, let's get together and > prove. In the process, we will find whatpartsof the current definition > need filling in, because they will be points where the sought algorithm > lacks input. Further, the development of the algorithm will guide what > form the additions should take. The same will be true if there are parts > that are just wrong, don't fit in with the program. In the end, we will > have a complete description of a Lojban pretty close (I assume, but then, > ...) to the present one which will demonstrably do what it claims to do and > will differ from the present one only in filling in what was left out (or > had not yet gotten in) and in corecting what was wrong before. Wrong in a > fairly objective way -- not just inelegant or some aesthetic of political > consideration but because it got in the way of the project. This seems to > be a project to satisfy everyone (well, there is probably a perfectionist > somewhere who will not accept a finished functioning language while he can > still dream a"perfect" but unbegun one). As a side result, the work on the > algorithm will probably produce a G&T grammar for Lojban as well, giving a > complete description in yet another linguistic theory. > > > On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:20 PM, Dustin Lacewell < > dlacewell@gmail.com> wrote: > > > TR NS, > > This is the unifying reason the FAR MAJORITY of conlangs die! Accept this > at face value! > > On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 4:02 PM, TR NS wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 1:30:07 PM UTC-4, lojbab wrote: > > > This project is some 60 years old and we have a lot of history of people > explicitly leaving because of changes imposed from on-high. More > importantly, we have the history of dozens if not hundreds of conlangs > whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't stop fiddling with > the language design. Those that have survived and spread have stopped > being developed, and are simply USED. > > > Do you truly believe people would leave the language if a change was made > form "on-high" if it were a clear improvement? Just because it is a change? > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --14dae9cc98620688350502c4353b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2014-09-11 3:44 GMT+04:00 'John E Clifford' via lojban <= lojban@googlegroups.com>:
<= div>
<= div>A modest proposal for a way forward together.
Some say Lojban just needs a b= it more description, some say it needs a number of changes, so say it needs= scraping and a fresh start.

=
For me Lojban first needs an up to date description even if this= description is incomplete.

E.g. I wouldn't mi= nd if "font switching" cmavo were removed from the new CLL.
=

However, outside official documentation there can be an= y number of super-complete unofficial refgrams, papers and tutorials. And I= don't care how many of them would exist (in fact there are plenty of t= hem in the wiki already).

Voting and usage would s= uggest adding those additions into future versions of CLL (CLL 3.0 and high= er).

=C2=A0
Needs for what, pray? = =C2=A0Though some seem unhappy (I can't think why) with this characteri= zation, the reason for Lojban is orthoparsing. =C2=A0 Does Lojban have this= property? =C2=A0There is scarcely a demonstration of monoparsing, let alon= e that the resulting structure maps to a unique formula of logic, and far f= rom that it is the right unique structure. =C2=A0So, let's get together= and prove. =C2=A0In the process, we will find whatpartsof the current definition need= filling in, because they will be points where the sought algorithm lacks i= nput. =C2=A0Further, the development of the algorithm will guide what form = the additions should take. =C2=A0The same will be true if there are parts t= hat are just wrong, don't fit in with the program. =C2=A0In the end, we= will have a complete description of a Lojban pretty close (I assume, but t= hen, ...) to the present one which will demonstrably do what it claims to d= o and will differ from the present one only in filling in what was left out= (or had not yet gotten in) and in corecting what was wrong before. =C2=A0W= rong in a fairly objective way -- not just inelegant or some aesthetic of p= olitical consideration but because it got in the way of the project. =C2=A0= This seems to be a project to satisfy everyone (well, there is probably a p= erfectionist somewhere who will not accept a finished functioning language while he can still dream a"perfect" but unbegun one). = =C2=A0As a side result, the work on the algorithm will probably produce a G= &T grammar for Lojban as well, giving a complete description in yet ano= ther linguistic theory.


=
On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 6:= 20 PM, Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com> wrote:


TR NS,

This= is the unifying reason the FAR MAJORITY of conlangs die! Accept this at fa= ce value!

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 4:0= 2 PM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:


On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 1:30:07 PM UTC-= 4, lojbab wrote:

This project is= some 60 years old and we have a lot of history of people=20
explicitly leaving because of changes imposed from on-hi= gh. =C2=A0More=20
importantly, we have the history of dozens if not hundre= ds of conlangs=20
whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't s= top fiddling with=20
the language design. =C2=A0Those that have survived and = spread have stopped=20
being developed, and are simply USED. =C2=A0

Do you truly believe= people would leave the language if a change was made form "on-high&qu= ot; if it were a clear improvement? Just because it is a change?
=
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Goog= le Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI/unsubsc= ribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.= com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.= com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--14dae9cc98620688350502c4353b--