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Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 16:33:41 +0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Digest for lojban@googlegroups.com - 13 updates in 3 topics
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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2014-09-11 16:06 GMT+04:00 Karen Stein <comcaresvcs@gmail.com>:

> In sorry, but I can't get my new email program to reply specifying a
> topic...
>

I can see that you are getting digests from google groups. This means it's
better to reply via web interface:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lojban


> State of the language...
>
> I can certainly state that people drop out of lojban learning and even
> following because the language isn't stable enough. The entire local group
> quit.
>

Which local group are you talking about?


> It will never be perfect because no language is, and I believe it still
> needs the starting point specified from which changes can evolve slowly.
>
> I'm the only one from this group who's even following it now, and the
> arguments about the same exact issue of if lojban needs a baseline is
> getting very old. I also know people who still feel there is too much flux
> to learn lojban. Adding gismu, as I've seen discussed, is not minor.
> Everything can be expressed as is (fu'ivla, etc) and over decades and
> longer of usage these may shorten to gismu, but the changes don't have to
> happen immediately. Change that is too quick makes the language harder to
> learn and the speaker base grow more slowly. This is what a baseline was
> supposed to prevent.
>

There is a difference between A. adding new words and B. breaking past
usage.
There is a difference between
1. an explanatory material published in one place covering the whole
language
2. and a bunch of changes split here and there (including oral
explanations) that nobody can follow.


> I'm also seeing proposals based on how a single language expresses
> something which is counter to lojban, in my opinion. This is still
> malglico, or mal-whatever.
>
> Finally, remember that even this language has speakers, learners, and
> potential learners who aren't online, who can't participate in the
> discussions of "improvements"
>

Yes, this is one of the major reasons language should evolve only via a
limited number of official documents like we had CLL (Complete Lojban
Language) book.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2014-09-11 16:06 GMT+04:00 Karen Stein <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:comcaresvcs@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">comcaresvcs@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>In sorry, but I can&#39;t get my new e=
mail program to reply specifying a topic...<br></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>I can see that you are getting digests from google groups. This =
means it&#39;s better to reply via web interface:</div><div><a href=3D"http=
s://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lojban">https://groups.google.com/forum=
/#!forum/lojban</a><br><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,2=
04,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>
<br>
State of the language...<br>
<br>
I can certainly state that people drop out of lojban learning and even foll=
owing because the language isn&#39;t stable enough. The entire local group =
quit.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Which local group are you talki=
ng about?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,20=
4,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div> It will never be per=
fect because no language is, and I believe it still needs the starting poin=
t specified from which changes can evolve slowly.<br>
<br>
 I&#39;m the only one from this group who&#39;s even following it now, and =
the arguments about the same exact issue of if lojban needs a baseline is g=
etting very old. I also know people who still feel there is too much flux t=
o learn lojban. Adding gismu, as I&#39;ve seen discussed, is not minor. Eve=
rything can be expressed as is (fu&#39;ivla, etc) and over decades and long=
er of usage these may shorten to gismu, but the changes don&#39;t have to h=
appen immediately. Change that is too quick makes the language harder to le=
arn and the speaker base grow more slowly. This is what a baseline was supp=
osed to prevent.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There is a diffe=
rence between A. adding new words and B. breaking past usage.</div><div>The=
re is a difference between</div><div>1. an explanatory material published i=
n one place covering the whole language=C2=A0</div><div>2. and a bunch of c=
hanges split here and there (including oral explanations) that nobody can f=
ollow.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204=
);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>
<br>
I&#39;m also seeing proposals based on how a single language expresses some=
thing which is counter to lojban, in my opinion. This is still malglico, or=
 mal-whatever.<br>
<br>
Finally, remember that even this language has speakers, learners, and poten=
tial learners who aren&#39;t online, who can&#39;t participate in the discu=
ssions of &quot;improvements&quot;</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Ye=
s, this is one of the major reasons language should evolve only via a limit=
ed number of official documents like we had CLL (Complete Lojban Language) =
book.</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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