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[216.109.115.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ld1si337003qcb.3.2014.09.11.09.17.00 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Sep 2014 09:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.41; Received: from [66.196.81.157] by nm15.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Sep 2014 16:16:59 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.147] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Sep 2014 16:16:59 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1023.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Sep 2014 16:16:59 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 516185.58197.bm@omp1023.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 58183 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Sep 2014 16:16:58 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 3Dv9Q14VM1lFDcfpjgQWtTFBMDfuoDCKYhBgi7qt1NuIsz9 TyV.ma2GA_bfbaMItDXk6yBqIrjdWSf2XKkUp.mTI2L3gyEoZqCKMX.Hkxd_ .JFEDbe3KcB.YOTIP9.mbVhMhujMdd3ntODEfsC37PDfUN6wOo2.Bg9Zd1Wn 5XWlsiEUVDS8gxHGTmBRaJOklfxf4qPX8wYMe8iMxrqhPb9higN8tRZb0c4H n50wFTD4YLV0mpzT5srS4Y4XNpY5NZlvg2zEoWEeWIJlJ9w3b3WBaM_eelGj OWcUCKKJ25N5lz2upPiboMSwQ31gPFncj5iSurDZ1x8NLuTBZKDdyAK2HEmH 2Qpdn4j.u6.gHPpkN1boAFFAvtCW10AwFR199rnJ0gf3i5CD3uHY5NLGZaz1 2PfameGGPIXOiq1MXMKtWk8OjlfFxnLEFI2Ys8Ho_7sB8B5dWguu4yWJtej_ fQUmeGESjppwvNUqP9xtvZrmN86YgMGo_xR_1hk1RtTkunw_mg2hbfnNXGmP MmFUjbtmYROiPNRbSniG_P6zIvhxHFrs_jFmytRYn2vI1v5qm2gEY_RMkqsV O2IkAjAPLiGzw4DIEfGKC4D_ePi9Ex9yf7.U5SKj0i6FUZy9vxW3CzA_Sq_O zRZVpVQ4KJ9Vax_CLRNlXs1U0IWBVj8SJu_sch2vjxnsZhyQTn.ut6TVa2os rdGkdcmApd7D6T.pTt21ntzDX6BdaG_GV2.NonzvaLUMZ Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 09:16:58 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,U3VyZWx5IHRoZXJlIGFyZSBhdCBsZWFzdCBzb21lIGMncyAobW9yZSB0aGFuIGIncywgaXQgYXBwZWFycykgd2hvIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgYm90aCBDTEwgYW5kIGN1cnJlbnQgdXNhZ2UgbmVlZCB3b3JrIGJ1dCB0aGF0IGNoYW5nZXMgdG8gYWxsIG9mIHRoZXNlIG5lZWQgdG8gYmUgZ3VpZGVkIGJ5IG92ZXJhcmNoaW5nIGdvYWxzLgoKCk9uIFRodXJzZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMTEsIDIwMTQgMTE6MDIgQU0sIEdsZWtpIEFyeG9rdW5hIDxnbGVraS5pcy5teS5uYW1lQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6CiAKCgoKCjIBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <25B055499F67420FA34794323F9A95AB@gmail.com> <540B374A.9040409@lojban.org> <540B8D1B.8050807@gmail.com> <540F391F.5050002@lojban.org> <336d2f55-fba7-46d5-8a8a-332e0dd24f39@googlegroups.com> <584b4939-5c76-417c-9a52-bfe78de00ecb@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1410452218.10654.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 09:16:58 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-910415156-1429986813-1410452218=:10654" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ---910415156-1429986813-1410452218=:10654 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Surely there are at least some c's (more than b's, it appears) who think th= at both CLL and current usage need work but that changes to all of these ne= ed to be guided by overarching goals. On Thursday, September 11, 2014 11:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: =20 2014-09-11 19:48 GMT+04:00 TR NS : > >On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 7:20:54 PM UTC-4, Dustin Lacewell wrote: >TR NS, >> >> >>This is the unifying reason the FAR MAJORITY of conlangs die! Accept this= at face value! >> >> > > >I'd be concerned that a language that did not achieve its stated goals mig= ht also suffer the same fate. Regardless I will take it at face value, and = conclude Lojban has reached a type of impasse, perhaps inevitable. > > >Clearly there are two camps of thought: There are those, like yourself, wh= o wish to see the language frozen, unassailable from all but minor adjustme= nts, wanting to get on with *using* the language, and see the language's de= ath in any further modification. Then there are those who see a language th= at has not yet reached it's fruition --still in need of work, minor or sign= ificant, and in seeing those "holes", see a dead language in one that is no= longer evolving. I can see there are two major camps: A. Language is frozen in what is both describes in CLL and is used + the la= nguage is at the same time open to backward compatible changes B. IRC/mailing list usage decides. Everything else has sense only if doesn'= t contradict IRC/mailing list usage. Scenario B completely ignores people who have paid their money to buy CLL t= o learn the most described language in the world. As a temporary solution I can suggest that LLG sells the rest of the copies= of CLL with a small handmade inset "How to use xorlo". This should have been done in 2003 of course since xorlo is really backward= non-compatible and thus damaged the spread and the development of Lojban b= y diverting newcomers. > >There is no reconciliation of these two views. The only solution is a fork= .=20 > > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---910415156-1429986813-1410452218=:10654 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Surely there are at least some c's (more than b's,= it appears) who think that both CLL and current usage need work but that c= hanges to all of these need to be guided by overarching goals.
=


=
On Thursday, September 11, 2014 11:02 AM, Gleki = Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

=

2014-09-11 19:48 GMT+04:00 TR NS <= transfire@gmail.com>:


On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 7:20:54 PM UTC-4, Dustin Lacew= ell wrote:
TR NS,

This is the unifying = reason the FAR MAJORITY of conlangs die! Accept this at face value!


I'd be concerned that a language that did not achieve its stated goals might also suffer the same = fate. Regardless I will take it at face value, and conclude Lojban has reac= hed a type of impasse, perhaps inevitable.

Clearly there are two camps of thought: There are those, like yours= elf, who wish to see the language frozen, unassailable from all but minor a= djustments, wanting to get on with *using* the language, and see the langua= ge's death in any further modification. Then there are those who see a lang= uage that has not yet reached it's fruition --still in need of work, minor = or significant, and in seeing those "holes", see a dead language in one tha= t is no longer evolving.

I can see there are two major camps:
A. Language is froz= en in what is both describes in CLL and is used + the language is at the sa= me time open to backward compatible changes
B. IRC/mailing list usage decides. Everything else has sense only if doesn't contradict I= RC/mailing list usage.


Scenario B completely ignores people who have paid their = money to buy CLL to learn the most described language in the world.

As a temporary solution I can suggest that= LLG sells the rest of the copies of CLL with a small handmade inset "How t= o use xorlo".

This should have been= done in 2003 of course since xorlo is really backward non-compatible and t= hus damaged the spread and the development of Lojban by diverting newcomers= .


There is no reco= nciliation of these two views. The only solution is a fork. 

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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