Received: from mail-lb0-f186.google.com ([209.85.217.186]:38178) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XSBiQ-0000j7-2h for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:15:43 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f186.google.com with SMTP id c11sf660753lbj.3 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:15:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Wy0niys0jQAbRRUE+ch55+HSW32k/XgFLIMh4pHmDZc=; b=ppDo5jQzNoPTqIEFkONTmMcsm29JBrUATTVqNCSXXqRW5CZxYdSnyzCY1XfzCCm6bL qVZikAZ9U5Mw4mKM/PMXC5SwA8QWCGW940EGX/iWnzRVUX9YIsBJ+25O85RejhVirbJm dK9IKygUPX4mDE3mi6Sxm7IiWq7TGAbAZCBlSNRD8ZZOu39FDB0eCeQA2a2SpUO8datF AK2brBYZ4APtqgYCiW399CsDs0ZguNMEBadKxidP+eoexSp04szl2sj82N+XXS57kenZ 8hX308y1/LtG3za1y0/XeVX4nNKDqv01hP+NJo+RTqAOt5+DCBraFpZMxhpEmysuN6aQ zmKg== X-Received: by 10.152.246.2 with SMTP id xs2mr36869lac.7.1410470134682; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:15:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.8.199 with SMTP id t7ls113200laa.3.gmail; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:15:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.73.164 with SMTP id m4mr21175lbv.18.1410470133659; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x231.google.com (mail-la0-x231.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fa3si288121lbc.0.2014.09.11.14.15.33 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dlacewell@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::231; Received: by mail-la0-f49.google.com with SMTP id pv20so3198794lab.36 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:15:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.6.40 with SMTP id x8mr4200497lax.18.1410470133501; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.168.75 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:15:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <541203DF.2070009@lojban.org> References: <25B055499F67420FA34794323F9A95AB@gmail.com> <540B374A.9040409@lojban.org> <540B8D1B.8050807@gmail.com> <540F391F.5050002@lojban.org> <336d2f55-fba7-46d5-8a8a-332e0dd24f39@googlegroups.com> <584b4939-5c76-417c-9a52-bfe78de00ecb@googlegroups.com> <541203DF.2070009@lojban.org> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 14:15:33 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership From: Dustin Lacewell To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: DLacewell@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dlacewell@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dlacewell@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0141a0204614b70502d0ab48 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --089e0141a0204614b70502d0ab48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The biggest logical fallacy in this entire discourse is that the changes wanting to be made are dreamt up on a sterile whiteboard by 'language tinkerers' whatever the hell that actually means. The actual reality is that you have a substantial community (whether you want to hand wave us away as not being representitve somehow, a group of more than a handful of Lojban anything is substantial as far as I'm concerned) who is using the language daily, continuously throughout the day and have been doing so for years. Those changes are the result of usage. Of finding what works and doesn't work for us as -users of the language-. What's happening here is that we would like to commit our findings back into the language so we can both claim to be speaking "Lojban" and so that we don't have to qualify everything as being 'official' or 'experimental' to the many and regular new comers that show up on our door. Diminish and minimize us all you want. But understand it doesn't actually move your interlocutors to do so. We are aware of our own reality. If you're just singing to your own choir fine, but its important for the wider audience here to realize you're being offensively ignorant on this point. No doubt - day to day - we sure spend a whole lot more time using and talking about Lojban than you characterize yourself to be doing. Please readjust your tone to acknowledge that the changes that are knocking at your door are legitimate concerns borne from -daily utilization-. Regards. On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote: > On 9/11/2014 12:02 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > >> I can see there are two major camps: >> A. Language is frozen in what is both describes in CLL and is used + the >> language is at the same time open to backward compatible changes >> B. IRC/mailing list usage decides. Everything else has sense only if >> doesn't contradict IRC/mailing list usage. >> >> >> Scenario B completely ignores people who have paid their money to buy >> CLL to learn the most described language in the world. >> >> As a temporary solution I can suggest that LLG sells the rest of the >> copies of CLL with a small handmade inset "How to use xorlo". >> >> This should have been done in 2003 of course since xorlo is really >> backward non-compatible and thus damaged the spread and the development >> of Lojban by diverting newcomers. >> > > I think the 1.1 CLL, that Robin is apparently working on, will accomplish > a lot of what is needed. We could perhaps come up with a set of change > pages for purchasers of the original CLL, though I don't think that anyone > will be willing to do the work. Once 1.1 is done, I suspect that many of > the proposed changes and additions based on usage can be discussed more > rationally, especially if they are submitted with proposed change pages > (and we *should* be able to do change pages from 1.1 to 2.0 fairly easily > assuming the markup language doesn't change; original CLL was produced from > a PDF produced by the then-version of Microsoft Word, and one needs that > old proprietary version of Word in order to work with the original). > > I suspect that Lojban can live with such a result, which will still be > "the most described language in the world", and respect both older users as > well as newer ones. If we can essentially stop the prescriptive tweaking > with 2.0, the future of the language is probably bright. > > That at least is my vision of the moment %^) > > lojbab > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ > topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e0141a0204614b70502d0ab48 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The biggest logical fallacy in this entire discourse is th= at the changes wanting to be made are dreamt up on a sterile whiteboard by = 'language tinkerers' whatever the hell that actually means. The act= ual reality is that you have a substantial community (whether you want to h= and wave us away as not being representitve somehow, a group of more than a= handful of Lojban anything is substantial as far as I'm concerned) who= is using the language daily, continuously throughout the day and have been= doing so for years.

Those changes are the result of usa= ge. Of finding what works and doesn't work for us as -users of the lang= uage-. What's happening here is that we would like to commit our findin= gs back into the language so we can both claim to be speaking "Lojban&= quot; and so that we don't have to qualify everything as being 'off= icial' or 'experimental' to the many and regular new comers tha= t show up on our door.

Diminish and minimize us all you want. But un= derstand it doesn't actually move your interlocutors to do so. We are a= ware of our own reality. If you're just singing to your own choir fine,= but its important for the wider audience here to realize you're being = offensively ignorant on this point.

No doubt - day to day - we sure = spend a whole lot more time using and talking about Lojban than you charact= erize yourself to be doing. Please readjust your tone to acknowledge that t= he changes that are knocking at your door are legitimate concerns borne fro= m -daily utilization-.

Regards.

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Bob LeChe= valier, President and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.org> wrot= e:
On 9/11/2014 12:02 PM= , Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
I can see there are two major camps:
A. Language is frozen in what is both describes in CLL and is used + the language is at the same time open to backward compatible changes
B. IRC/mailing list usage decides. Everything else has sense only if
doesn't contradict IRC/mailing list usage.


Scenario B completely ignores people who have paid their money to buy
CLL to learn the most described language in the world.

As a temporary solution I can suggest that LLG sells the rest of the
copies of CLL with a small handmade inset "How to use xorlo".

This should have been done in 2003 of course since xorlo is really
backward non-compatible and thus damaged the spread and the development
of Lojban by diverting newcomers.

 I think the 1.1 CLL, that Robin is apparently working on, will accomplish a= lot of what is needed.=C2=A0 We could perhaps come up with a set of change= pages for purchasers of the original CLL, though I don't think that an= yone will be willing to do the work.=C2=A0 Once 1.1 is done, I suspect that= many of the proposed changes and additions based on usage can be discussed= more rationally, especially if they are submitted with proposed change pag= es (and we *should* be able to do change pages from 1.1 to 2.0 fairly easil= y assuming the markup language doesn't change; original CLL was produce= d from a PDF produced by the then-version of Microsoft Word, and one needs = that old proprietary version of Word in order to work with the original).
I suspect that Lojban can live with such a result, which will still be &quo= t;the most described language in the world", and respect both older us= ers as well as newer ones.=C2=A0 If we can essentially stop the prescriptiv= e tweaking with 2.0, the future of the language is probably bright.

That at least is my vision of the moment %^)

lojbab


--
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To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban+= unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--089e0141a0204614b70502d0ab48--