Received: from mail-ig0-f187.google.com ([209.85.213.187]:41209) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XSCer-0001GT-Cq for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:16:06 -0700 Received: by mail-ig0-f187.google.com with SMTP id h15sf1281igd.24 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:15:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=14bHiRiNVH5bLe5fjwlnSxfrZ9kxVT0XE+DFOLFgPVc=; b=Xqo5qeg6Dqw68t3+yxMLC+gp2VGsjKhiRyna72jCHFRJOzKEAtTDk8optfc8StsIVy pAZ8MN3hRO7D4LAhVkJ+UiAIzoXjqJZp0AcDBOKuP9dY04FYGokHsqFxcv3w6JMPUqAO vHU//AhNkagD6FiiFF/WLZ1gxVekK0C/dzLwLflSlBZn4ByB+hFC19ih0hy3FVEqhMzA P328bn+dlvl0mRsPaDYjZ8iPh/gS5Zwll9ucpwO/XxSFzE11C7iSsJKWJ4E682Og0iUw Y6RQIQgWTmwsc19ZLshBpXOizHee9QWLu34L0Nh9m8+Am80w0HBYLsWeD38zch8lFzuL bebg== X-Received: by 10.182.171.98 with SMTP id at2mr31220obc.4.1410473759414; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:15:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.22.50 with SMTP id a18ls150849obf.49.gmail; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:15:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.111.170 with SMTP id ij10mr2054225obb.6.1410473758536; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22e.google.com (mail-qc0-x22e.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id im3si583110qcb.1.2014.09.11.15.15.58 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e; Received: by mail-qc0-f174.google.com with SMTP id m20so2078279qcx.19 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:15:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.229.136.133 with SMTP id r5mr6224020qct.31.1410473758371; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:15:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.159.211 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:15:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5411FB14.3030807@lojban.org> References: <25B055499F67420FA34794323F9A95AB@gmail.com> <540B374A.9040409@lojban.org> <540B8D1B.8050807@gmail.com> <540F391F.5050002@lojban.org> <5411FB14.3030807@lojban.org> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 18:15:28 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1135f3e855378b0502d183d1 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1135f3e855378b0502d183d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Lojbab, I encourage you to do those translations anyway. It's easier to update than to create, so by doing the hard work of creating the translations in the first place, you'd be enabling better translations in the future. stevo On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote: > On 9/10/2014 7:02 PM, TR NS wrote: > >> On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 1:30:07 PM UTC-4, lojbab wrote: >> >> >> This project is some 60 years old and we have a lot of history of >> people >> explicitly leaving because of changes imposed from on-high. More >> importantly, we have the history of dozens if not hundreds of conlangs >> whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't stop fiddling with >> the language design. Those that have survived and spread have stopped >> being developed, and are simply USED. >> >> >> Do you truly believe people would leave the language if a change was >> made form "on-high" if it were a clear improvement? Just because it is a >> change? >> > > Yes, because they would not see it as a clear improvement BECAUSE it is a > change (and the reference grammar that they understood as a standard is now > declared to be incorrect. > > Furthermore, I know this from experience, because the change to Loglan > called the "Great Morphological Revision" that remade a significant > fraction of gismu, but also made possible the assignment of unique rafsi > that enabled lujvo to be uniquely decomposed - one of the most fundamental > and successful of the Lojban design features inherited from JCB's version > of Loglan. That change caused the language community to die for several > years, and planted the seeds of schism that eventually and indirectly > resulted in creating Lojban. > > xorlo, which most newer people (apparently excepting gleki) consider a > major improvement has been a significant demotivator in my using the > language. Probably I wouldn't be using the language much anyway, (I have > found that using a language even semi-fluently is extremely difficult for > me, even if I know the rules and the words well) but I had translations > that I really wanted to do, and I remain unconvinced that anyone will be > able to read them because I cannot use xorlo properly. > > And again, this isn't just me. The advantage and disadvantage of being > language-engineer-in-chief, is that everyone for a couple of decades told > me their gripes as they arrived and as they gave up/left. People gave up > on Loglan because it kept changing. They came back to Lojban because we > committed not to keep changing, and to completing a set of language > documentation. They then left because we did not complete the documents, > many of them saying that they would return when "the language is done". > > It is the same mindset that has tens of millions still using Microsoft > Windows XP, even though it is 10 years out of date and no longer supported > by Microsoft. Upgrading to a new version of Windows (or to some other > operating system) would take more of a relearning curve than they would > want to bother with, and possibly make some of their old stuff unusable. > "Clear improvements" simply aren't what they want. > > lojbab > > > lojbab > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1135f3e855378b0502d183d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lojbab,
I encourage you to do those translations anyway. = It's easier to update than to create, so by doing the hard work of crea= ting the translations in the first place, you'd be enabling better tran= slations in the future.=C2=A0

stevo

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 3:42 PM, B= ob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
On 9/10/201= 4 7:02 PM, TR NS wrote:
On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 1:30:07 PM UTC-4, lojbab wrote:


 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This project is some 60 years old and we have a lot of histor= y of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 people
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 explicitly leaving because of changes imposed from on-high.= =C2=A0 More
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 importantly, we have the history of dozens if not hundreds of= conlangs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 whose usage has not spread because people wouldn't stop f= iddling with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the language design.=C2=A0 Those that have survived and sprea= d have stopped
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 being developed, and are simply USED.


 Do you truly believe people would leave the language if a change was
made form "on-high" if it were a clear improvement? Just because = it is a
change?

Yes, because they would not see it as a clear improvement BECAUSE it is a c= hange (and the reference grammar that they understood as a standard is now = declared to be incorrect.

Furthermore, I know this from experience, because the change to Loglan call= ed the "Great Morphological Revision" that remade a significant f= raction of gismu, but also made possible the assignment of unique rafsi tha= t enabled lujvo to be uniquely decomposed - one of the most fundamental and= successful of the Lojban design features inherited from JCB's version = of Loglan.=C2=A0 That change caused the language community to die for sever= al years, and planted the seeds of schism that eventually and indirectly re= sulted in creating Lojban.

xorlo, which most newer people (apparently excepting gleki) consider a majo= r improvement has been a significant demotivator in my using the language.= =C2=A0 Probably I wouldn't be using the language much anyway, (I have f= ound that using a language even semi-fluently is extremely difficult for me= , even if I know the rules and the words well) but I had translations that = I really wanted to do, and I remain unconvinced that anyone will be able to= read them because I cannot use xorlo properly.

And again, this isn't just me.=C2=A0 The advantage and disadvantage of = being language-engineer-in-chief, is that everyone for a couple of decades = told me their gripes as they arrived and as they gave up/left.=C2=A0 People= gave up on Loglan because it kept changing.=C2=A0 They came back to Lojban= because we committed not to keep changing, and to completing a set of lang= uage documentation.=C2=A0 They then left because we did not complete the do= cuments, many of them saying that they would return when "the language= is done".

It is the same mindset that has tens of millions still using Microsoft Wind= ows XP, even though it is 10 years out of date and no longer supported by M= icrosoft.=C2=A0 Upgrading to a new version of Windows (or to some other ope= rating system) would take more of a relearning curve than they would want t= o bother with, and possibly make some of their old stuff unusable.=C2=A0 &q= uot;Clear improvements" simply aren't what they want.

lojbab


lojbab

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--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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