Received: from mail-qc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:41901) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XSnAZ-0001g9-C3 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 13 Sep 2014 06:15:17 -0700 Received: by mail-qc0-f189.google.com with SMTP id o8sf320200qcw.6 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2014 06:15:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=references:message-id:date:from:reply-to:subject:to:in-reply-to :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=qqmUdxfJdQD+va5o9esk3REjlDooJyk4KrJ6zvgTwkw=; b=pnDQlvwwEQnYUYkG+v9MMoJK04TZCJ88TOCLA+Uax/H1HnisQCW3cWo2YHaXS367R2 GQf2tBUp0x7S2grOyMQEiMMunVLpVR1Sza1gKqa6bEn9chNGYVk/r8xk+43ZgKNZmJac M77uqojVuQYQCFbQKglkC+PmszyrtqVez9az8SqKrRO8PzN4B8VC/VCfmF5AFRQoJFfG WfOZKrTNRbBnznQrR5Z+U9HuzNLDRZnakswkUhCAGnerFYL/DKW80f3Cp3Ay1zuuFLX4 ZFimxsF+KOLAsFOV/x2NJT1xriXNNx/fPcUgEtTuT6f6nfy+neTJWLJc1o1jJuLvcSzQ K5xQ== X-Received: by 10.182.73.135 with SMTP id l7mr35267obv.15.1410614108660; Sat, 13 Sep 2014 06:15:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.65.8 with SMTP id t8ls404258obs.31.gmail; Sat, 13 Sep 2014 06:15:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.43.164 with SMTP id x4mr8473816obl.5.1410614107911; Sat, 13 Sep 2014 06:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm6-vm6.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (nm6-vm6.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com. [216.39.63.154]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jw2si1068271pad.2.2014.09.13.06.15.07 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 13 Sep 2014 06:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.154 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.154; Received: from [216.39.60.175] by nm6.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Sep 2014 13:15:07 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.246] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Sep 2014 13:15:06 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1017.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Sep 2014 13:15:06 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 967099.67782.bm@omp1017.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 9342 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Sep 2014 13:15:06 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 6rrA3HAVM1laRlSMrlhRzUGSxBo50v2lvZTTuMFaN_KymeC EsKW4.jeZKaDUaxZAmFQBF.qtJHUj12KXCIWRUBT72ouxKLbQAz0GVRzY1OZ EUDHyRvP2jKoUzZjglGWT6AKnN7plPNeeeJeY6FlmZ4gLNrWSXVVrhAHutgG AS6edaFaXydPkQOIUfIrwJgp44W6iwkVKY0zTz4yv0s7VB9KvHhEH9CLhK7U xj3NxFUU4.XLrwP5.PibbmJHui.mZHLjrYsoPz3S4oTa_GKTNeQqQshTbY.k 9cLOWf9rHI1LCQHTUH5B2nnSkww7uKYHtixjUzuhTscr9It3SJyDbgOOd4lG .axLyLAwyfPIVLqC65MDOLfMLQPJNuUVd2KHJ.tz7RdUbAwuRKW94oUTyCJG ECC8T8fKt2I8g8QlzPzppxt58kvjZUbQl1bCGD9Re3mvAiPU8_YFj4aVCfkN zWH4E56XahCgLHgLwY6oyhUSm_iymcvfhkAPn6TV4ZSqdvaxXlJ2qpafIQ.W L46DmDruGNYlSeQ6r2L72fKSfLNDLylGSdlmuhjCX9PCGh7dZt5MiSUNgLzT oVnETGa4Dxnu5Bd0C.MsGglRyxQy3lj0xkY2r4OSWGNDc_CpdEb5rVM6tZG6 TWvD7Vmt6UpxfI69h4vMLHtcwWUALEoidPHNEMAZx9FphXd2XCtJeWO0OhIz i9fLcxP_9s8kX823iSmTouBjxBDsIAiW5CHOKHWj6bvReKbYSd8C77ABg_KE 1zqWtTjFSwI2OCeyL5pTPOk8teiJx0c6HO3o9WKrZ4y1CCaAosVfFqmKXixz tWvss2BRcrtfH9uDqyMfQeyglL5jtHFGLRf0- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 13 Sep 2014 06:15:05 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,TW9yZSBjb21tb24gaW4gdGhlIHdvcmxkIGF0IGxhcmdlLiAgT3JkaW5hcmlseSwgaWYgeW91IHNheSAic2V0JywgaXQgaXMgYXNzdW1lZCB5b3UgbWVhbiBDLXNldHMgKGV2ZW4gaWYgeW91ciBoZWFyZXIga25vd3MgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG90aGVyIGtpbmRzKS4gIEluIExvamJhbiwgaG93ZXZlciwgQy1zZXRzIGhhdmUgYWx3YXlzIG9jY3VwaWVkIGEgc2Vjb25kYXJ5IHBsYWNlLCBiZWhpbmQgd2hhdGV2ZXIge2xvIGJyb2RhfSBhbmQgdGhlIGxpa2UgcmVmZXJyZWQgdG8gKGFuZCB0aG9zZSBoYXZlIGJlZW4gc28BMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <1410554374.11890.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5f663c7d-7419-4b60-a3b4-a05deb9283a5@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1410614105.9399.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2014 06:15:05 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: C-sets To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.154 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-482694697-1671665763-1410614105=:9399" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ---482694697-1671665763-1410614105=:9399 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable More common in the world at large. Ordinarily, if you say "set', it is ass= umed you mean C-sets (even if your hearer knows there are other kinds). In= Lojban, however, C-sets have always occupied a secondary place, behind wha= tever {lo broda} and the like referred to (and those have been so truly odd= things at times). The reasoning was that, since in set theory C-sets were= used in a way that would not do what was needed, they could not be used in= Lojban to do what was needed. It turns out this is not true but does req= uire some added work, so we stick with L-sets (or equivalent) which do thin= gs more easily and are finally respectable entities. My point is just that= C-sets can do somethings a bit more tidily that L-sets and should get used= more in Lojban. On Saturday, September 13, 2014 12:30 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: =20 The draft at that link seems to treat C-sets as the more common, standard s= et theory kind, with L-sets as the less common kind, just the opposite of J= ohn's post above, AIUI.=20 stevo On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Andrew Browne wrote: Incase anyone else is looking for some more background to understand this: >http://pckipo.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/c-sets-and-l-sets-draft.html > > >PC: what your previous blog post, and this post, is missing is showing/exp= laining some examples of these different kinds of sets in Lojban. This woul= d be quite helpful if you want to promote usage. > > >Andrew / DerSaidin >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---482694697-1671665763-1410614105=:9399 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
More common in the world at large.  Ordinaril= y, if you say "set', it is assumed you mean C-sets (even if your hearer kno= ws there are other kinds).  In Lojban, however, C-sets have always occ= upied a secondary place, behind whatever {lo broda} and the like referred t= o (and those have been so truly odd things at times).  The reasoning w= as that, since in set theory C-sets were used in a way that would not do wh= at was needed, they could not be used in Lojban to do what was needed. &nbs= p; It turns out this is not true but does require some added work, so we st= ick with L-sets (or equivalent) which do things more easily and are finally= respectable entities.  My point is just that C-sets can do somethings= a bit more tidily that L-sets and should get used more in Lojban.


On Saturday, September 13, = 2014 12:30 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
 =


<= div>
The draft at that link seems to treat = C-sets as the more common, standard set theory kind, with L-sets as the les= s common kind, just the opposite of John's post above, AIUI. 

stevo

On Fri= , Sep 12, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Andrew Browne <dersaidin@gmail.com>= wrote:
Incase anyone else is looking for some more background to unde= rstand this:
PC: what your previous blog post, and this post, is missing is showing/explain= ing some examples of these different kinds of sets in Lojban. This would be= quite helpful if you want to promote usage.

<= /div>
Andrew / DerSaidin
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
---482694697-1671665763-1410614105=:9399--