Received: from mail-we0-f186.google.com ([74.125.82.186]:38508) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XT4zI-0006na-Cm for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 01:16:49 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f186.google.com with SMTP id w61sf202104wes.23 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 01:16:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=8lhQQYi0veEb3Ttcn5lmeIsj8/MZmkCF2yndiXrMdBo=; b=tw5p52uQ0D9c1mB3bRTAKCz9afvElN6q10D0Gmq/tTfxZ0yHr8NU8DMCtals3j0xxN OnS/W5QELAgld1/gi08dF8bXwaSLnJpDY+bDoNdbkNjkNMPrAlsSvwqR/gLO2QR0HhjD MVkA9QYMnD7jYcJHabn2uDUlmRKvC4V5f5zspgelpZc3j0N+TSt6y+E4sdMDicm+/dyO 3cJwa0FOILV9Ps2jxI+G42D38nZYkSMNp0BlEjEpm4E8TISjtjgZwul9cV5XmPAjykAK nyEsBjS7ykw5AE+1esGAenQ/UTlv6cmUKNXFWXuYpEIv8noqSPshphwyppAMcyonpqFN nNUA== X-Received: by 10.152.19.226 with SMTP id i2mr10303lae.5.1410682601365; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 01:16:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.246.35 with SMTP id xt3ls1992lac.67.gmail; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 01:16:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.1.6 with SMTP id 6mr5454937lai.3.1410682599892; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 01:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x232.google.com (mail-we0-x232.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h1si424494wib.0.2014.09.14.01.16.39 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Sep 2014 01:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::232; Received: by mail-we0-f178.google.com with SMTP id q58so2633671wes.9 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 01:16:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.20.148 with SMTP id n20mr15546128wie.22.1410682599761; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 01:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.89.193 with HTTP; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 01:16:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <25B055499F67420FA34794323F9A95AB@gmail.com> <540B374A.9040409@lojban.org> <540B8D1B.8050807@gmail.com> <540F391F.5050002@lojban.org> <540F6802.3070709@gmail.com> <5410B7BF.9030005@lojban.org> <5411FCE9.3090907@lojban.org> <5414B97E.8050502@lojban.org> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 12:16:39 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec53f345d3fee0c050302239e X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --bcaec53f345d3fee0c050302239e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2014-09-14 10:52 GMT+04:00 Dustin Lacewell : > "impose on the rest of us generally seems arbitrary" > > Yes, because it is 'us' and then everyone else who you represent. Sure. > Mmhmm. > > "and in any case requires extra learning (and possibly unlearning, which > is the real bugaboo)" > > Which is the exact result that happens with changes borne through 'usage' > as you say. But relearning or 'extra learning' is fine, as long as its not > done by 'language tinkerers' which label you arbitrarily assign. Great. > Makes perfect sense. > > "We cannot prevent such dialectization, and I wouldn't want to try. But > we also shouldn't allow one particular group/dialect dictate changes to > everyone else, especially since the rest of us didn't experience whatever > motivated your change." > > You're just arbitrarily deciding that changes borne from a single > community simply shouldn't be considered regardless of the nature of the > change. Yeah this is so completely agreeable. I mean especially since we're > dictating these changes on everyone else and this thread didn't start with > a public announcement of intention and an invitation for the entire > community to remark and participate. But I guess we didn't need the voice > of the entire community because we have you. > > "The original intent was that after the baseline" > > Yeah great. By reiterating unfulfilled 'intention's' we can just avoid > the entire issue completely, right? I mean -you're- not going to make good > on those intentions are you? I didn't think so. So has your involvement in > the project been reduced to just gridlocking the project with this tactic? > I mean, why am I asking. Look at the pudding. Its made of proof. > > "Your usage. Not that of others." > > What others? Where is this mystical group of lojbanists that actually > matter? Where are they either finishing your baseline, or prompting the > community for progress like we are? They don't exist. You just keep > referring to these mythical CLL holders as if owning a CLL somehow trumps > other people in the community. > They are not mythical. I can't name them because it won't be polite to name them without their consent. However, you can see their online blogs, their tweets, their sentences in Tatoeba. I own a CLL. Who cares? > They do. [snip] > "That's nice. But your reality isn't everyone's." > > You're responding to me describing our community. I wasn't extrapolating > the work and daily utilization of lojban to any other community. I was > describing our's. But this statement is just exemplary to expose just > how disparaging you are to those you're not familiar with who's opinion's > you disagree with. What is YOUR lojban reality Lojbab? Do you even have > one? Is it more or less relevant to ours or literally any community using > lojban today? But you can discount entire communities because you're the > maladjusted leader. Get over yourself and stop acting like you have some > relevancy that can dictate who's usage of Lojban is legitimate enough for > the considerations of the usage to be useful in contemplating where the > language goes. > zo'onai, I think you should stop insulting people. It's not the first time that you are diverting people from Lojban. This happened before when you diverted at least two people from IRC chat and from Facebook. *Why should I continue advertising Lojban in social networks when other people divert people from it by just insulting them* and telling them what they can do and what they cannot? *It's hard to attract people towards a delicate logical language, it's easy to just insult them with bad language.* You are not polite towards others and now including even LLG members. Please, change your attitude. [snip] > Again who does? Which part of the community has valid experience useful > for contemplating and making considerations for what works and doesn't? Is > it just you? Is it just your friends? Is there some other secret cove of > language speakers that you can explicitly name that has this authority? Oh > what about that non-sequitur about us 'dictating' changes to people? How > about you not squlech an open movement to bring progress and activity back > to the language where literally anyone can participate in those processes? > Such an "open movement" is a step to breaking even what is left of Lojban (it's not a secret that the intensity of community work has dropped since 2003 which was shown earlier by la mukti's historical studies). > You're insane and you're wrong. > .oi -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --bcaec53f345d3fee0c050302239e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2014-09-14 10:52 GMT+04:00 Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com&= gt;:
"impo= se on the rest of us generally seems arbitrary"

<= /div>
Yes, because it is 'us' and then everyone else who = you represent. Sure. Mmhmm.

<= /div>
"and in any case requires extra learning (and possibly = unlearning, which is the real bugaboo)"

<= /div>
Which is the exact result= that happens with changes borne through 'usage' as you say. But re= learning or 'extra learning' is fine, as long as its not done by &#= 39;language tinkerers' which label you=C2=A0arbitrarily=C2=A0assign. Gr= eat. Makes perfect sense.

"We cannot prevent such dialect= ization, and I wouldn't want to try.=C2=A0 But we also shouldn't al= low one particular group/dialect dictate changes to everyone else, especial= ly since the rest of us didn't experience whatever motivated your chang= e."

You're just=C2=A0arbitrarily=C2=A0deciding that changes bor= ne from a single community simply shouldn't be considered regardless of= the nature of the change. Yeah this is so=C2=A0completely agreeable. I mea= n especially since we're dictating these changes on everyone else and t= his thread didn't start with a public announcement of intention and an = invitation for the entire community to remark and participate. But I guess = we didn't need the voice of the entire community because we have you.

"The original inte= nt was that after the baseline"

Yeah great. By reiterating=C2=A0unfulfilled=C2=A0'intention's' we can just a= void the entire issue completely, right? I mean -you're- not going to m= ake good on those intentions are you? I didn't think so. So has your in= volvement in the project been reduced to just gridlocking the project with = this tactic? I mean, why am I asking. Look at the pudding. Its made of proo= f.

"Your usage.=C2=A0 Not that of others."

What others? Where is this mystical gro= up of lojbanists that actually matter? Where are they either finishing your= baseline, or prompting the community for progress like we are? They don= 9;t exist. You just keep referring to these mythical CLL holders as if owni= ng a CLL somehow trumps other people in the community.

They are not mythical. I can't name them= because it won't be polite to name them without their consent. However= , you can see their online blogs, their tweets, their sentences in Tatoeba.=

I own a CLL. Wh= o cares?

They do.
<= div>
[snip]


"That's nice.= But your reality isn't everyone's."

You're responding to me describing our community= . I wasn't extrapolating the work and daily utilization of lojban to an= y other community. I was describing our's. But this statement is just= =C2=A0exemplary to expose just how=C2=A0disparaging=C2=A0you are to = those you're not familiar with who's opinion's you disagree wit= h. What is YOUR lojban reality=C2=A0Lojbab? Do you even have one? Is it mor= e or less relevant to ours or literally any community using lojban today?=C2=A0But you can discount entir= e communities because you're the maladjusted leader. Get over yourself = and stop acting like you have some relevancy that can dictate who's usa= ge of Lojban is legitimate enough for the considerations of the usage to be= useful in contemplating where the language goes.
=

zo'onai, I think you should stop insul= ting people. It's not the first time that you are diverting people from= Lojban.
This happened before when you diverted at least two peop= le from IRC chat and from Facebook.

Why should = I continue advertising Lojban in social networks when other people divert p= eople from it by just insulting them and telling them what they can do = and what they cannot?

It's hard to attract = people towards a delicate logical language, it's easy to just insult th= em with bad language.
You are not polite towards others and n= ow including even LLG members.

Please, change your= attitude.

[snip]


Agai= n who does? Which part of the community has valid experience useful for con= templating and making considerations for what works and doesn't? Is it = just you? Is it just your friends? Is there some other secret cove of langu= age speakers that you can explicitly name that has this authority? Oh what = about that non-sequitur about us 'dictating' changes to people? How= about you not squlech an open movement to bring progress and activity back= to the language where literally anyone can participate in those processes?=

Such an "open move= ment" is a step to breaking even what is left of Lojban (it's not = a secret that the intensity of community work has dropped since 2003 which = was shown earlier by la mukti's historical studies).


You're i= nsane and you're wrong.

<= div>.oi

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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