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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 04:45:32 -0600
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj2mhLiTXhi7Qdte4uzxn_1AdkW++w9FcZrSXVMLpA8HyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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I've been completely ignoring this topic pretty much since I got the answer
to my question. I personally have no interest in leadership, all I care
about is that whatever needs to be done, is done. As far as the specific
changes desired by what I'm going to arbitrarily call "the selpa'i group",
I haven't paid enough attention to know what they are, so I can't give my
opinion to them. If and when they are put into a formal proposal to the
BPFK, I'll review them and give them my vote(s), as I'm sure the other BPFK
members will.

The reason for this missive is simple. Be respectful or shut up. I am not
directing that statement at any one person specifically, so if you think I
might be directing it at you, the reader, you're probably right. Petite
bickering and insults will accomplish nothing.

Lojbab has himself admitted that he doesn't really keep up with Lojban's
changes, he's even said he still doesn't understand what xorlo does. This
does not mean he is not deserving of respect. He is one of if not the
founding father of Lojban, and has been involved to some extent since
before its inception. He therefore has years of experience under his belt.
At the very least, he knows better than probably anybody else what has been
tried in the past, what failed, and why. Regardless of your personal
feelings to the man's attitudes or mode of speech, he deserves respect at
the very least for those facts alone. I'm my opinion he's pretty set in his
ways and a bit crotchety, but I don't consider either of those things to be
negative. His is the force of historical imperative, for Lojban at least
practically the embodiment of knowing history so as not to be doomed to
repeat it.

The selpa'i group obviously wants to make changes, and my passing glimpse
leads me to believe that there's either a lot of them, or they're pretty
big, or both. They say, and I have no evidence to the contrary, that the
changes they desire are based on problems and optimizations they've
uncovered due to continued, daily use of the language. The fact that this
group has collectively strived to use Lojban, conversationally, in itself
is deserving of respect. This is not obviously a Bad Thing. After all,
change is inevitable, regardless of the forces that act to prevent it, and
stagnation equals death, in all things. Theirs is the force of change,
dynamism.

Neither of these things is bad, nor are they good, but both are necessary.
Change for the sake of change is purposeless, but so is resistance to any
change regardless of what it is. Neither stagnation nor chaos is a desired
outcome, as the former will kill the language, and the latter will make it
shatter into what amounts to unintelligible gibberish by any outside the
group of users.

Lojban is currently a prescribed language, and at least until some point as
it becomes the common language of at least one culture, as in the first and
possibly only language this group learns, I think it should remain as such.
That means that every change in the language that isn't formally approved
by the maintaining body- the BPFK- is "experimental". There's no way around
it. There's nothing keeping people from using experimental valsi, but those
who do use it have to accept the fact that because they are, they stand a
large chance getting the response "ki'a [experimental valsi]". This was set
up specifically to prevent language schisms. That doesn't mean that changes
to the language can not happen and never will, it means that there is a
system in place for formally making changes.

Last I checked, the reason why no changes are allowed is because the cmavo
have yet to be finished documented, or in other words, the baseline isn't
complete, which is the only requirement preventing change proposals from
being looked at and voted for approval. And, just as obviously, this
barrier can be circumvented given good enough reason, as happened with
xorlo, and to a lesser extent dotside, which as far as I'm aware is
actually still officially an experimental change that just happens to be a
simple and good enough idea that everyone does it anyway. I personally
wouldn't have a problem with doing away with that barrier altogether,
except that it seems to be the only impetus anyone has for finishing the
documentation, which, I should add, is pretty damned near finished. I would
wager that if everyone who is in the Lojban Google Group took one cmavo and
documented it, we'd be finished before everyone had a turn, and then the
serious business of looking at and voting on approval of change proposals
could commence.

I don't personally have a problem with selpa'i taking on a leadership role
in the community. If he wants it, he can have it, as far as I'm concerned.
It's not like Robin couldn't do with having some of the weight shifted to
someone else's shoulders. I would willing to go so far as to allow selpa'i,
should he wish it, to have all the, for lack of a better word, political
power Robin currently has, not including the veto or the power to select
the BPFK membership, which I would prefer remained in Robin's hands. I also
wouldn't have a problem with selpa'i having BPFK membership and the
powers/duties that come with that. I do, however, have to say that what I
see proposed as far as this is concerned, looks more like a coup or a
mutiny, and I certainly don't approve of that. I don't agree that the
current system needs to be changed. The problems aren't being caused by the
members not caring, or being tyrannical, but simply by the fact that there
are things that must be done before the things that all of us - and I use
"all" loosely- want to happen, can happen.

Okay, this has gotten very ranty. In conclusion, I think everyone needs to
step back, calm down, and be civil. If you want change, do it by working
with the current system, not by trying to overthrow it. If you want some
usage that is currently experimental to become official, write up a
proposal and submit it to the BPFK. More than likely it'll be put on the
backburner until the documentation is complete, but there's a simple fix
for that, too- help finish the documentation. But no matter where you
stand, please at least try to keep personal attacks, insults, assumptions,
and the like out of your position. A debate is a reasoned discourse wherein
two or more sides attempt to show the other(s) the benefits of their
positions, an argument is a bunch of monkeys throw poo at each other. Stop
being monkeys, put your poo in the toilet where it belongs.

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 3:30 AM, Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com>
wrote:

> "My attitude is a direct response to being diminished and dismissed. I'll
> change it when that changes."
>
> I don't mean me, personally. I mean entire groups of people, dismissed out
> right, out of hand.
>
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 2:29 AM, Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Gleki,
>>
>> If all you have left is the tried and wearied approach of accusing others
>> of destroying the langauge and driving out speakers then ... wait that's
>> what essentially every argument you put forth is founded on. You can wave
>> your hands and talk about some unnamed people I've 'driven out' at the same
>> time I point to the speakers I've brought to the language.
>>
>> "Please, change your attitude."
>>
>> My attitude is a direct response to being diminished and dismissed. I'll
>> change it when that changes.
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 1:53 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14 Sep 2014 09:16, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > (it's not a secret that the intensity of community work has dropped
>>> since 2003 which was shown earlier by la mukti's historical studies).
>>>
>>> What and where are these historical studies? Was 2003 the historical
>>> peak?
>>>
>>> --And.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
>>> Google Groups "lojban" group.
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI/unsubscribe.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
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>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>


-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

-- 
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--001a11c29feeaed11e050304375d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>I&#39;ve been completely ignoring this topi=
c pretty much since I got the answer to my question. I personally have no i=
nterest in leadership, all I care about is that whatever needs to be done, =
is done. As far as the specific changes desired by what I&#39;m going to ar=
bitrarily call &quot;the selpa&#39;i group&quot;, I haven&#39;t paid enough=
 attention to know what they are, so I can&#39;t give my opinion to them. I=
f and when they are put into a formal proposal to the BPFK, I&#39;ll review=
 them and give them my vote(s), as I&#39;m sure the other BPFK members will=
.<br><br></div>The reason for this missive is simple. Be respectful or shut=
 up. I am not directing that statement at any one person specifically, so i=
f you think I might be directing it at you, the reader, you&#39;re probably=
 right. Petite bickering and insults will accomplish nothing.<br><br></div>=
Lojbab has himself admitted that he doesn&#39;t really keep up with Lojban&=
#39;s changes, he&#39;s even said he still doesn&#39;t understand what xorl=
o does. This does not mean he is not deserving of respect. He is one of if =
not the founding father of Lojban, and has been involved to some extent sin=
ce before its inception. He therefore has years of experience under his bel=
t. At the very least, he knows better than probably anybody else what has b=
een tried in the past, what failed, and why. Regardless of your personal fe=
elings to the man&#39;s attitudes or mode of speech, he deserves respect at=
 the very least for those facts alone. I&#39;m my opinion he&#39;s pretty s=
et in his ways and a bit crotchety, but I don&#39;t consider either of thos=
e things to be negative. His is the force of historical imperative, for Loj=
ban at least practically the embodiment of knowing history so as not to be =
doomed to repeat it.<br><br></div><div>The selpa&#39;i group obviously want=
s to make changes, and my passing glimpse leads me to believe that there=
9;s either a lot of them, or they&#39;re pretty big, or both. They say, and=
 I have no evidence to the contrary, that the changes they desire are based=
 on problems and optimizations they&#39;ve uncovered due to continued, dail=
y use of the language. The fact that this group has collectively strived to=
 use Lojban, conversationally, in itself is deserving of respect. This is n=
ot obviously a Bad Thing. After all, change is inevitable, regardless of th=
e forces that act to prevent it, and stagnation equals death, in all things=
. Theirs is the force of change, dynamism.<br><br></div><div>Neither of the=
se things is bad, nor are they good, but both are necessary. Change for the=
 sake of change is purposeless, but so is resistance to any change regardle=
ss of what it is. Neither stagnation nor chaos is a desired outcome, as the=
 former will kill the language, and the latter will make it shatter into wh=
at amounts to unintelligible gibberish by any outside the group of users.<b=
r><br></div><div>Lojban is currently a prescribed language, and at least un=
til some point as it becomes the common language of at least=20
one culture, as in the first and possibly only language this group=20
learns, I think it should remain as such. That means that every change in t=
he language that isn&#39;t formally approved by the maintaining body- the B=
PFK- is &quot;experimental&quot;. There&#39;s no way around it. There&#39;s=
 nothing keeping people from using experimental valsi, but those who do use=
 it have to accept the fact that because they are, they stand a large chanc=
e getting the response &quot;ki&#39;a [experimental valsi]&quot;. This was =
set up specifically to prevent language schisms. That doesn&#39;t mean that=
 changes to the language can not happen and never will, it means that there=
 is a system in place for formally making changes.<br><br></div><div>Last I=
 checked, the reason why no changes are allowed is because the cmavo have y=
et to be finished documented, or in other words, the baseline isn&#39;t com=
plete, which is the only requirement preventing change proposals from being=
 looked at and voted for approval. And, just as obviously, this barrier can=
 be circumvented given good enough reason, as happened with xorlo, and to a=
 lesser extent dotside, which as far as I&#39;m aware is actually still off=
icially an experimental change that just happens to be a simple and good en=
ough idea that everyone does it anyway. I personally wouldn&#39;t have a pr=
oblem with doing away with that barrier altogether, except that it seems to=
 be the only impetus anyone has for finishing the documentation, which, I s=
hould add, is pretty damned near finished. I would wager that if everyone w=
ho is in the Lojban Google Group took one cmavo and documented it, we&#39;d=
 be finished before everyone had a turn, and then the serious business of l=
ooking at and voting on approval of change proposals could commence.<br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t personally have a problem with selpa&#39=
;i taking on a leadership role in the community. If he wants it, he can hav=
e it, as far as I&#39;m concerned. It&#39;s not like Robin couldn&#39;t do =
with having some of the weight shifted to someone else&#39;s shoulders. I w=
ould willing to go so far as to allow selpa&#39;i, should he wish it, to ha=
ve all the, for lack of a better word, political power Robin currently has,=
 not including the veto or the power to select the BPFK membership, which I=
 would prefer remained in Robin&#39;s hands. I also wouldn&#39;t have a pro=
blem with selpa&#39;i having BPFK membership and the powers/duties that com=
e with that. I do, however, have to say that what I see proposed as far as =
this is concerned, looks more like a coup or a mutiny, and I certainly don&=
#39;t approve of that. I don&#39;t agree that the current system needs to b=
e changed. The problems aren&#39;t being caused by the members not caring, =
or being tyrannical, but simply by the fact that there are things that must=
 be done before the things that all of us - and I use &quot;all&quot; loose=
ly- want to happen, can happen.<br><br></div><div>Okay, this has gotten ver=
y ranty. In conclusion, I think everyone needs to step back, calm down, and=
 be civil. If you want change, do it by working with the current system, no=
t by trying to overthrow it. If you want some usage that is currently exper=
imental to become official, write up a proposal and submit it to the BPFK. =
More than likely it&#39;ll be put on the backburner until the documentation=
 is complete, but there&#39;s a simple fix for that, too- help finish the d=
ocumentation. But no matter where you stand, please at least try to keep pe=
rsonal attacks, insults, assumptions, and the like out of your position. A =
debate is a reasoned discourse wherein two or more sides attempt to show th=
e other(s) the benefits of their positions, an argument is a bunch of monke=
ys throw poo at each other. Stop being monkeys, put your poo in the toilet =
where it belongs.<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 3:30 AM, Dustin Lacewell <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dlacewell@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dlace=
well@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"">&quot;<span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-s=
erif;font-size:12.7272720336914px">My attitude is a direct response to bein=
g diminished and dismissed. I&#39;ll change it when that changes.&quot;<br>=
<br></span></span><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.7272720336914px">I don&#39;t mean me, personally. I mean entire gr=
oups of people,=A0</span>dismissed<span style=3D"font-size:12.7272720336914=
px">=A0out right, out of hand.</span></font></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZ=
b"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 2:29 AM, Dustin Lacewell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:dlacewell@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dlacewell@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
Gleki,<div><br></div><div>If all you have left is the tried and wearied app=
roach of accusing others of destroying the langauge and driving out speaker=
s then ... wait that&#39;s what essentially every argument you put forth is=
 founded on. You can wave your hands and talk about some unnamed people I&#=
39;ve &#39;driven out&#39; at the same time I point to the speakers I&#39;v=
e brought to the language.</div><div><br></div><div>&quot;<span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.7272720336914px">Please, change you=
r attitude.&quot;</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-se=
rif;font-size:12.7272720336914px"><br></span></div><div><font face=3D"arial=
, sans-serif">My attitude is a direct response to being diminished and dism=
issed. I&#39;ll change it when that changes.</font></div></div><div><div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 14, 201=
4 at 1:53 AM, And Rosta <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:and.rosta@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">and.rosta@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><p dir=3D"ltr">On 14 Sep 2014 09:16, &qu=
ot;Gleki Arxokuna&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; (it&#39;s not a secret that the intensity of community work has droppe=
d since 2003 which was shown earlier by la mukti&#39;s historical studies).=
</p>
</span><p dir=3D"ltr">What and where are these historical studies? Was 2003=
 the historical peak?</p><span><font color=3D"#888888">
<p dir=3D"ltr">--And.</p></font></span><div><div>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l=
uk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. =
:D )<br>
</div>

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