Received: from mail-oi0-f56.google.com ([209.85.218.56]:40946) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XTAXs-0000bR-WB for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:12:54 -0700 Received: by mail-oi0-f56.google.com with SMTP id e131sf591876oig.11 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:12:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=HYr76Eyha6+AEpaLh41FdKhILLF29lERjgrTGUn9ymM=; b=n9sv97+YHWj7yIYOX8QqcZH3W9AHtBr9ecq6aLhY3POJ1jvgy1WgEbvd3eTDDtbuW/ 6RekRs6a8DBEv4wRBleuzn9v/ZthvJs/VYy/9pDPaTQQlNOxV1Iwi9Zu458KkahCG+a4 ba3MW8WaAgIPvX5kQOhlzhOj+K05ZME3ZHTk5qMLol90+cnxyULI6S3Gt1ijK45mgfGx /PuvqPipIrSZQtvVDhkDRTs2HBTVZ2XXdEOICuJQl26rsAUy4zv1gvpH0rk7534Ex73R DoyM1S4l+S10uN1jR6YpizP4x81wSxXFDb/IumXrhWnbDkz4VloW4l5uyW2VedQAXx9+ o+uQ== X-Received: by 10.50.115.74 with SMTP id jm10mr156049igb.12.1410703966584; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:12:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.61.142 with SMTP id p14ls1510360igr.18.gmail; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:12:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.147.227 with SMTP id tn3mr12106205pab.4.1410703966160; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x230.google.com (mail-vc0-x230.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ew8si38033vdb.1.2014.09.14.07.12.46 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::230; Received: by mail-vc0-f176.google.com with SMTP id la4so2438496vcb.7 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:12:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.220.190.134 with SMTP id di6mr18526282vcb.43.1410703965959; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:12:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.97.67 with HTTP; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:12:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1410614105.9399.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1410554374.11890.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5f663c7d-7419-4b60-a3b4-a05deb9283a5@googlegroups.com> <1410614105.9399.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: ".arpis." Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 10:12:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: C-sets To: Lojban X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1c11cc63fbf0503071cb5 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c1c11cc63fbf0503071cb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I may be missing something. When you say "used more", do you mean at the language design level or at the speaker level. Could I, as a speaker, distinguish between C-sets and L-sets in my speech as lojban is now? Also, do you have any references for someone who would like to learn more about L-sets, preferably accessible by a computer science graduate student who has studied neither logic nor linguistics in depth? On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 9:15 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban < lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > More common in the world at large. Ordinarily, if you say "set', it is > assumed you mean C-sets (even if your hearer knows there are other kinds). > In Lojban, however, C-sets have always occupied a secondary place, behind > whatever {lo broda} and the like referred to (and those have been so truly > odd things at times). The reasoning was that, since in set theory C-sets > were used in a way that would not do what was needed, they could not be > used in Lojban to do what was needed. It turns out this is not true but > does require some added work, so we stick with L-sets (or equivalent) which > do things more easily and are finally respectable entities. My point is > just that C-sets can do somethings a bit more tidily that L-sets and should > get used more in Lojban. > > > On Saturday, September 13, 2014 12:30 AM, MorphemeAddict < > lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote: > > > The draft at that link seems to treat C-sets as the more common, standard > set theory kind, with L-sets as the less common kind, just the opposite of > John's post above, AIUI. > > stevo > > On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Andrew Browne > wrote: > > Incase anyone else is looking for some more background to understand this: > http://pckipo.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/c-sets-and-l-sets-draft.html > > PC: what your previous blog post, and this post, is missing is > showing/explaining some examples of these different kinds of sets in > Lojban. This would be quite helpful if you want to promote usage. > > Andrew / DerSaidin > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c1c11cc63fbf0503071cb5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I may be missing something. When you say "used m= ore", do you mean at the language design level or at the speaker level= . Could I, as a speaker, distinguish between C-sets and L-sets in my speech= as lojban is now?

Also, do you have any references for someon= e who would like to learn more about L-sets, preferably accessible by a com= puter science graduate student who has studied neither logic nor linguistic= s in depth?

On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 9:15 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <= span dir=3D"ltr"><lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
More common in the world at large. =C2=A0Ordinaril= y, if you say "set', it is assumed you mean C-sets (even if your h= earer knows there are other kinds). =C2=A0In Lojban, however, C-sets have a= lways occupied a secondary place, behind whatever {lo broda} and the like r= eferred to (and those have been so truly odd things at times). =C2=A0The re= asoning was that, since in set theory C-sets were used in a way that would = not do what was needed, they could not be used in Lojban to do what was nee= ded. =C2=A0 It turns out this is not true but does require some added work,= so we stick with L-sets (or equivalent) which do things more easily and ar= e finally respectable entities. =C2=A0My point is just that C-sets can do s= omethings a bit more tidily that L-sets and should get used more in Lojban.


On Saturday, September 13, 2014 12:30 AM, Morphem= eAddict <lytlesw@= gmail.com> wrote:


The d= raft at that link seems to treat C-sets as the more common, standard set th= eory kind, with L-sets as the less common kind, just the opposite of John&#= 39;s post above, AIUI.=C2=A0

stevo

On = Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Andrew Browne <dersaidin@gmail.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">Incase anyone else is looking for some more background to u= nderstand this:=

PC: what your previous blog post, and this post, is missing is showing/explain= ing some examples of these different kinds of sets in Lojban. This would be= quite helpful if you want to promote usage.

<= /div>
Andrew / DerSaidin
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

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