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[216.39.63.222]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hz1si1350615pbc.1.2014.09.14.07.17.50 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.222 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.222; Received: from [216.39.60.176] by nm14.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2014 14:17:50 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.245] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2014 14:17:50 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1016.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2014 14:17:50 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 230577.75632.bm@omp1016.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 9515 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Sep 2014 14:17:49 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: y7hkEcsVM1leT9t0LALzeEvlPizPbyDJjW4W61EiUOrfHGt 0RzU4qdOjgO3MI..RBOmY5bmBtbVD6J7txpGzcg09BkiulA0V736BKsKzOdK HG1e8TgYTDedwVl2zU5uME_0fTKFgglAPHOsM2dhjMZadBj7ZKujerTL_r57 vuFZweK5H_kvdjKPdE4CjDnmIraKDR4MyyIjFUjVMKxqldzmsA7LjXhb0iWi wrZVKdEpED7HgGYROjX2fzFfdUYAknjgXoM0R.9cr2KkEtWA1gzqvCM96rCE k597TTLRPa279P25EQ9kbWylG.9KKL6OwsOmr0PNRUHL1gn9F1Y644FD9Xn1 bh1vgxbTxZvVSyod439OvT9QohfHW8sK.hGRHHY255XOqee.4D2B5S7mqgZS xTifxN1Tks4PrX5Jt8dKb8h.s0jDdredr3bLQKANLHWJS.MVHJEN.DK9J84M zV6Oh7lICVBfnZL8eHy6td46OqmMOKl1nZ0tX1H.Afu.EjjIapBWx5ASAeP. OMyAtdwVGsCREfK1A40kQlVroCYironUGmVZB_4QfRarB0hWNmQZMLaMqv6w fxsJRX.CvqnUA.JIUJHn.QTjKI7rxfXIXueEIqNliWTEBggW4CyFTESsxN0C H6_mVA5dV.jHu6olRucF7mIo1ipd_iJGquOQOI.nPYkQk4z.VvAhdUeFRBhh 2JWb9QQXoWB6avcNtxJ.ZscAx3wALHHKvjz0j6a1h3vXbS5MyTMY0UPEVL7b j6RnOgX.cc7pv0kmDYPxIMDqU.fwZHrlrZ_fkig4bdQhxPZqsjebhgqiYg7V Pk0xM1MiX7Gekdr84aAmQRyuSuDthwgwZHCw- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:17:49 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,CgoKCk9uIFN1bmRheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDE0LCAyMDE0IDk6MTIgQU0sIC5hcnBpcy4gPHJwZ2xvdmVyNjQramJvYmF1QGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6CiAKCgpJIG1heSBiZSBtaXNzaW5nIHNvbWV0aGluZy4gV2hlbiB5b3Ugc2F5ICJ1c2VkIG1vcmUiLCBkbyB5b3UgbWVhbiBhdCB0aGUgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgZGVzaWduIGxldmVsIG9yIGF0IHRoZSBzcGVha2VyIGxldmVsLiBDb3VsZCBJLCBhcyBhIHNwZWFrZXIsIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoIGJldHdlZW4gQy1zZXRzIGFuZCBMLXNldHMgaW4gbXkgc3BlZWNoIGFzIGwBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <1410554374.11890.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5f663c7d-7419-4b60-a3b4-a05deb9283a5@googlegroups.com> <1410614105.9399.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1410704269.60837.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:17:49 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: C-sets To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.222 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-204173969-892284340-1410704269=:60837" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ---204173969-892284340-1410704269=:60837 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday, September 14, 2014 9:12 AM, .arpis. wrote: =20 I may be missing something. When you say "used more", do you mean at the la= nguage design level or at the speaker level. Could I, as a speaker, disting= uish between C-sets and L-sets in my speech as lojban is now? Also, do you have any references for someone who would like to learn more a= bout L-sets, preferably accessible by a computer science graduate student w= ho has studied neither logic nor linguistics in depth? On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 9:15 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: More common in the world at large. Ordinarily, if you say "set', it is ass= umed you mean C-sets (even if your hearer knows there are other kinds). In= Lojban, however, C-sets have always occupied a secondary place, behind wha= tever {lo broda} and the like referred to (and those have been so truly odd= things at times). The reasoning was that, since in set theory C-sets were= used in a way that would not do what was needed, they could not be used in= Lojban to do what was needed. It turns out this is not true but does req= uire some added work, so we stick with L-sets (or equivalent) which do thin= gs more easily and are finally respectable entities. My point is just that= C-sets can do somethings a bit more tidily that L-sets and should get used= more in Lojban. > > > >On Saturday, September 13, 2014 12:30 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >=20 > > >The draft at that link seems to treat C-sets as the more common, standard = set theory kind, with L-sets as the less common kind, just the opposite of = John's post above, AIUI.=20 > > >stevo > > >On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Andrew Browne wrote= : > >Incase anyone else is looking for some more background to understand this: >>http://pckipo.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/c-sets-and-l-sets-draft.html >> >> >>PC: what your previous blog post, and this post, is missing is showing/ex= plaining some examples of these different kinds of sets in Lojban. This wou= ld be quite helpful if you want to promote usage. >> >> >>Andrew / DerSaidin >>--=20 >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. >>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > --=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .arpis. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---204173969-892284340-1410704269=:60837 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sunday,= September 14, 2014 9:12 AM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wr= ote:


I may be missing something. When= you say "used more", do you mean at the language design level or at the sp= eaker level. Could I, as a speaker, distinguish between C-sets and L-sets i= n my speech as lojban is now?

Also, do you hav= e any references for someone who would like to learn more about L-sets, pre= ferably accessible by a computer science graduate student who has studied n= either logic nor linguistics in depth?

On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 9:15 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
More co= mmon in the world at large.  Ordinarily, if you say "set', it is assum= ed you mean C-sets (even if your hearer knows there are other kinds).  = ;In Lojban, however, C-sets have always occupied a secondary place, behind = whatever {lo broda} and the like referred to (and those have been so truly = odd things at times).  The reasoning was that, since in set theory C-s= ets were used in a way that would not do what was needed, they could not be= used in Lojban to do what was needed.   It turns out this is not true= but does require some added work, so we stick with L-sets (or equivalent) = which do things more easily and are finally respectable entities.  My = point is just that C-sets can do somethings a bit more tidily that L-sets a= nd should get used more in Lojban.


On Saturday, Septe= mber 13, 2014 12:30 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:


The draft at th= at link seems to treat C-sets as the more common, standard set theory kind,= with L-sets as the less common kind, just the opposite of John's post abov= e, AIUI. 

=
stevo
=
On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Andrew Browne <ders= aidin@gmail.com> wrote:
Incase anyone else is looking for some more background to underst= and this:
<= br clear=3D"none">
PC: what your previous blog post, and this post, is missing is showing/explain= ing some examples of these different kinds of sets in Lojban. This would be= quite helpful if you want to promote usage.

<= /div>
Andrew / DerSaidin
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--
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--
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<= br clear=3D"none">--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.
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