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[216.39.63.108]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cy7si538806pdb.1.2014.09.14.07.39.53 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.108 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.108; Received: from [216.39.60.168] by nm20.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2014 14:39:53 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.160] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2014 14:39:53 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1026.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2014 14:39:53 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 741013.27763.bm@omp1026.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 1654 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Sep 2014 14:39:52 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 5E3BBdMVM1katm1M9DUrJZkVYlIMbr.N83txXhdu0BbRGEC IDe3ar8kcIOAA2oOsw.lQ8VNhzL_N7xmTsuW01cPhPsVOr1jo7.WeqyFRh8H CWx7tk5kFNt_ok.mI.k6M4AzQt9xnPofa1zSeTTVrCRyENDPo0oQaJ8o.PE4 EMz8zNEnTQ0e_bOS5VK4WFqWfbrhh2aKIKN0tHGlx0cpMblKsergrRrtoX3v XRvOWq_fEyv2D7r_bghgZU.sFuOyPl4ffuovkzrQDZP53qZNoJVSrVzsKRFC 2ey5KN2viprSgabodihsGPQbbb.KZ8PQmwwJJSJnhB585VLZjHTTsi2m_lYo jETe2bNz4CJottygi1zSWh9JS3fjm1_0UF3bunsFm0VSalV4S56EVmG6KNAx AfJGiu0A9YbjSd9W9g7fwSzvIk6wJ2m.I1inUDq15cbgAj9LVm0uC.2srLCi Dqy2l87RF9FN9IjqAr5bM.41k35Dc_xLnKA4dV_VqLdJsAImDBY4aO1HimSu OZi.F2j8IJ_bCFfb2vPXBRReo3ZurWdFKOU2PUfmORVDLmeXs5FJa1iYcJmv hBq3dqpTCABozXhXmqWA5LWLRVZbKZ0sKhWcYJCeoGXsx_jJAZTOZWwAXkGp KLTPiO90rfQpnV4foQnwK777vz5m61wkllWqVEG1gXJCoftO7bJy1NtjkZQY 03D4S43NgudhulAHjCv5qK8itIDQOM_0WyAFG7gh..j0T8bL_fuQttni6E5R 0KBlk8E63MAH0CPEiMt.QaB0AQJMxl7U6aPBQCgb4q1VYNdIrw6_yuSxjSoW LUAiExmaKXH2hxOOqdt8bM38crir7I.c- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:39:52 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,Qm90aC4gIEMtc2V0cyBnZXQgdmVyeSBzaG9ydCBzaHJpZnQgaW4gQ0xMLCBhIG1lcmUgbWVudGlvbiBvZiBsVidlIGluIHRoZSBnYWRyaSBzZWN0aW9uIGFuZCBsaXR0bGUgZWxzZSBleHBvc2l0b3J5LCBldmVuIGluIE1FWC4gIEFuZCBubyB1c2VzIHRoZW0gaW4gdGhlIGxhbmd1YWdlLCBwYXJ0bHkgYmVjYXVzZSBvZiB0aGUgQ0xMIHNpdHVhdGlvbiBhbmQgcGFydGx5IGJlY2F1c2Ugb2YgdGhlIGJlbGllZiB0aGF0IHRoZXkgYXJlIHZpcnR1YWxseSB1c2Vsc3MgKGkuZS4sIGNhbiBvbmx5IGJlIHVzZWQgYXMBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <1410554374.11890.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5f663c7d-7419-4b60-a3b4-a05deb9283a5@googlegroups.com> <1410614105.9399.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1410704269.60837.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1410705592.85126.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 07:39:52 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: C-sets To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <1410704269.60837.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.108 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="431184223-1331989972-1410705592=:85126" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --431184223-1331989972-1410705592=:85126 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Both. C-sets get very short shrift in CLL, a mere mention of lV'e in the g= adri section and little else expository, even in MEX. And no uses them in = the language, partly because of the CLL situation and partly because of the= belief that they are virtually uselss (i.e., can only be used as in set th= eory). As for useful places to look for information about L-sets, the vari= ous things Google supplies (under Lesniewski and mereology) tend to be rath= er technical and wrapped up in the particularities of the system (and relat= ed systems) rather than the matters of interest to Lojban. You can eventua= lly work out the good stuff but it is a bit uphill. I can't find a popular= or directed discussion anywhere -- of L-sets or related notions. =20 On Sunday, September 14, 2014 9:17 AM, John E Clifford wrote: =20 On Sunday, September 14, 2014 9:12 AM, .arpis. wrote: =20 I may be missing something. When you say "used more", do you mean at the la= nguage design level or at the speaker level. Could I, as a speaker, disting= uish between C-sets and L-sets in my speech as lojban is now? Also, do you have any references for someone who would like to learn more a= bout L-sets, preferably accessible by a computer science graduate student w= ho has studied neither logic nor linguistics in depth? On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 9:15 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: More common in the world at large. Ordinarily, if you say "set', it is ass= umed you mean C-sets (even if your hearer knows there are other kinds). In= Lojban, however, C-sets have always occupied a secondary place, behind wha= tever {lo broda} and the like referred to (and those have been so truly odd= things at times). The reasoning was that, since in set theory C-sets were= used in a way that would not do what was needed, they could not be used in= Lojban to do what was needed. It turns out this is not true but does req= uire some added work, so we stick with L-sets (or equivalent) which do thin= gs more easily and are finally respectable entities. My point is just that= C-sets can do somethings a bit more tidily that L-sets and should get used= more in Lojban. > > > >On Saturday, September 13, 2014 12:30 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >=20 > > >The draft at that link seems to treat C-sets as the more common, standard = set theory kind, with L-sets as the less common kind, just the opposite of = John's post above, AIUI.=20 > > >stevo > > >On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Andrew Browne wrote= : > >Incase anyone else is looking for some more background to understand this: >>http://pckipo.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/c-sets-and-l-sets-draft.html >> >> >>PC: what your previous blog post, and this post, is missing is showing/ex= plaining some examples of these different kinds of sets in Lojban. This wou= ld be quite helpful if you want to promote usage. >> >> >>Andrew / DerSaidin >>--=20 >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. >>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > --=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .arpis. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --431184223-1331989972-1410705592=:85126 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Both.  C-sets get very short sh= rift in CLL, a mere mention of lV'e in the gadri section and little else ex= pository, even in MEX.  And no uses them in the language, partly becau= se of the CLL situation and partly because of the belief that they are virt= ually uselss (i.e., can only be used as in set theory).  As for useful= places to look for information about L-sets, the various things Google sup= plies (under Lesniewski and mereology) tend to be rather technical and wrap= ped up in the particularities of the system (and related systems) rather than = the matters of interest to Lojban.  You can eventually work out the go= od stuff but it is a bit uphill.  I can't find a popular or directed d= iscussion anywhere -- of L-sets or related notions.   


On Sunday, September 14, 2= 014 9:17 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:



On Sunday, September 14, 2014 9:12 AM, .arpis. <= ;rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
=

I may be missi= ng something. When you say "used more", do you mean at the language design = level or at the speaker level. Could I, as a speaker, distinguish between C= -sets and L-sets in my speech as lojban is now?

Also, do you hav= e any references for someone who would like to learn more about L-sets, pre= ferably accessible by a computer science graduate student who has studied n= either logic nor linguistics in depth?

On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 9:15 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
More common in the world at large. =  Ordinarily, if you say "set', it is assumed you mean C-sets (even if = your hearer knows there are other kinds).  In Lojban, however, C-sets = have always occupied a secondary place, behind whatever {lo broda} and the = like referred to (and those have been so truly odd things at times).  = The reasoning was that, since in set theory C-sets were used in a way that = would not do what was needed, they could not be used in Lojban to do what w= as needed.   It turns out this is not true but does require some added= work, so we stick with L-sets (or equivalent) which do things more easily = and are finally respectable entities.  My point is just that C-sets ca= n do somethings a bit more tidily that L-sets and should get used more in Lojban.


On Saturday, September 13, 2014 12:30 AM, MorphemeAddict= <lytlesw@gmail.com= > wrote:


The draft at that link seems to treat C-sets as the more common, standard set theory kind, with L-sets as the less common kind, just the opposite of Joh= n's post above, AIUI. 

stevo
<= br clear=3D"none">
On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:57 PM, Andrew Browne <dersa= idin@gmail.com> wrote:
Incase anyone else is looking for some more background to understa= nd this:
http://pckipo.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/c-sets-and-l-sets-draft.html

PC: what your previous blog post, and this post, is missing is showing/explain= ing some examples of these different kinds of sets in Lojban. This would be= quite helpful if you want to promote usage.

<= /div>
Andrew / DerSaidin
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--
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--
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<= br clear=3D"none">--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.
--
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=

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