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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 12:25:37 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMDmBpHj_yYnQyD6bGMfD3M-Y0mCF3S+yp5e-yGa-__Knbar+g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership
From: Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com>
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I have never claimed that anyone, such as Gleki or Lojbab are 'unqualified'
for anything.

Pull out the logs if you want. I'll then pull out the reems of logs where
I'm introducing and holding the hands of new-comers - like I said.

For flinging poo, my assesment of Lojbab has nothing to do with respect of
some idealizied grandfather figure - it has to do with his direct speech in
effortlessly minimizing other's he doesn't associate himself with. Of
course Lojbab demands some sensibility of respect for what he's done - no
doubt, I can thank him a thousand times for what he's done and still be
utterly disgusted at his effortless bigotry. Just because he uses neutral
language to be a bigot doesn't mean he isn't being a bigot. Maybe you can
ask me to be neutral in my disgust of this out of hand bigotry sure fine.
I'll try to be more neutral in my disgust from here on out.

"Last I checked, the reason why no changes are allowed"

This just brings us back to the circular "existing intentions" that no one
who mentions them plans on executing them themselves. Always 'others' who
will finish this or that before we give our approval for anything else as
we sit in our comfy arm-chairs.

This original proposal was a direct appeal to take action to resituate what
exactly these "preconditions to change" are and how that process would work
and invite the community to become involved. ALL we have heard in this
thread is "The existing intention is to have..<insert tired shifting of
decade old plans onto some 'unnamed' entity who will do the work I demand
in my stead>".

I mean, fine, if this is the sediment that is left after this entire thread
as been boiled away great. You get what you wish for because no matter how
many times you groan and say 'but but but there's these existing things
that... well .. someone has to do first!' those words are not a magical
spell that mystically summon some creature willing to bide your will for
you.

"Oh my, your speech reflects how inane and trite and inbred the reality of
Lojban has succumb too, how dare you! You're a terrible person!"

Fine I'm a terrible person. It doesn't change that the process for your
language is broken, reader. Your language process is broken. Its broken.
Breathe it in. Your language will die because it stands on a cult of
personality. I guess you don't care, reader. Shift it to someone else.
Cover your eyes and plug your ears and rock yourself back into the
comfortable stupor of pretending you actually care about a thing you can't
be moved to affect in any real way except for squashing any realistic
attempt to maintain the thing from the comfort of your own inaction.

Or you know. Speak up? Maybe you don't even exist. And the audience here is
laughably and tragically smaller than we all believe.

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 3:45 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've been completely ignoring this topic pretty much since I got the
> answer to my question. I personally have no interest in leadership, all I
> care about is that whatever needs to be done, is done. As far as the
> specific changes desired by what I'm going to arbitrarily call "the selpa'i
> group", I haven't paid enough attention to know what they are, so I can't
> give my opinion to them. If and when they are put into a formal proposal to
> the BPFK, I'll review them and give them my vote(s), as I'm sure the other
> BPFK members will.
>
> The reason for this missive is simple. Be respectful or shut up. I am not
> directing that statement at any one person specifically, so if you think I
> might be directing it at you, the reader, you're probably right. Petite
> bickering and insults will accomplish nothing.
>
> Lojbab has himself admitted that he doesn't really keep up with Lojban's
> changes, he's even said he still doesn't understand what xorlo does. This
> does not mean he is not deserving of respect. He is one of if not the
> founding father of Lojban, and has been involved to some extent since
> before its inception. He therefore has years of experience under his belt.
> At the very least, he knows better than probably anybody else what has been
> tried in the past, what failed, and why. Regardless of your personal
> feelings to the man's attitudes or mode of speech, he deserves respect at
> the very least for those facts alone. I'm my opinion he's pretty set in his
> ways and a bit crotchety, but I don't consider either of those things to be
> negative. His is the force of historical imperative, for Lojban at least
> practically the embodiment of knowing history so as not to be doomed to
> repeat it.
>
> The selpa'i group obviously wants to make changes, and my passing glimpse
> leads me to believe that there's either a lot of them, or they're pretty
> big, or both. They say, and I have no evidence to the contrary, that the
> changes they desire are based on problems and optimizations they've
> uncovered due to continued, daily use of the language. The fact that this
> group has collectively strived to use Lojban, conversationally, in itself
> is deserving of respect. This is not obviously a Bad Thing. After all,
> change is inevitable, regardless of the forces that act to prevent it, and
> stagnation equals death, in all things. Theirs is the force of change,
> dynamism.
>
> Neither of these things is bad, nor are they good, but both are necessary.
> Change for the sake of change is purposeless, but so is resistance to any
> change regardless of what it is. Neither stagnation nor chaos is a desired
> outcome, as the former will kill the language, and the latter will make it
> shatter into what amounts to unintelligible gibberish by any outside the
> group of users.
>
> Lojban is currently a prescribed language, and at least until some point
> as it becomes the common language of at least one culture, as in the first
> and possibly only language this group learns, I think it should remain as
> such. That means that every change in the language that isn't formally
> approved by the maintaining body- the BPFK- is "experimental". There's no
> way around it. There's nothing keeping people from using experimental
> valsi, but those who do use it have to accept the fact that because they
> are, they stand a large chance getting the response "ki'a [experimental
> valsi]". This was set up specifically to prevent language schisms. That
> doesn't mean that changes to the language can not happen and never will, it
> means that there is a system in place for formally making changes.
>
> Last I checked, the reason why no changes are allowed is because the cmavo
> have yet to be finished documented, or in other words, the baseline isn't
> complete, which is the only requirement preventing change proposals from
> being looked at and voted for approval. And, just as obviously, this
> barrier can be circumvented given good enough reason, as happened with
> xorlo, and to a lesser extent dotside, which as far as I'm aware is
> actually still officially an experimental change that just happens to be a
> simple and good enough idea that everyone does it anyway. I personally
> wouldn't have a problem with doing away with that barrier altogether,
> except that it seems to be the only impetus anyone has for finishing the
> documentation, which, I should add, is pretty damned near finished. I would
> wager that if everyone who is in the Lojban Google Group took one cmavo and
> documented it, we'd be finished before everyone had a turn, and then the
> serious business of looking at and voting on approval of change proposals
> could commence.
>
> I don't personally have a problem with selpa'i taking on a leadership role
> in the community. If he wants it, he can have it, as far as I'm concerned.
> It's not like Robin couldn't do with having some of the weight shifted to
> someone else's shoulders. I would willing to go so far as to allow selpa'i,
> should he wish it, to have all the, for lack of a better word, political
> power Robin currently has, not including the veto or the power to select
> the BPFK membership, which I would prefer remained in Robin's hands. I also
> wouldn't have a problem with selpa'i having BPFK membership and the
> powers/duties that come with that. I do, however, have to say that what I
> see proposed as far as this is concerned, looks more like a coup or a
> mutiny, and I certainly don't approve of that. I don't agree that the
> current system needs to be changed. The problems aren't being caused by the
> members not caring, or being tyrannical, but simply by the fact that there
> are things that must be done before the things that all of us - and I use
> "all" loosely- want to happen, can happen.
>
> Okay, this has gotten very ranty. In conclusion, I think everyone needs to
> step back, calm down, and be civil. If you want change, do it by working
> with the current system, not by trying to overthrow it. If you want some
> usage that is currently experimental to become official, write up a
> proposal and submit it to the BPFK. More than likely it'll be put on the
> backburner until the documentation is complete, but there's a simple fix
> for that, too- help finish the documentation. But no matter where you
> stand, please at least try to keep personal attacks, insults, assumptions,
> and the like out of your position. A debate is a reasoned discourse wherein
> two or more sides attempt to show the other(s) the benefits of their
> positions, an argument is a bunch of monkeys throw poo at each other. Stop
> being monkeys, put your poo in the toilet where it belongs.
>
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 3:30 AM, Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "My attitude is a direct response to being diminished and dismissed.
>> I'll change it when that changes."
>>
>> I don't mean me, personally. I mean entire groups of people, dismissed out
>> right, out of hand.
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 2:29 AM, Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Gleki,
>>>
>>> If all you have left is the tried and wearied approach of accusing
>>> others of destroying the langauge and driving out speakers then ... wait
>>> that's what essentially every argument you put forth is founded on. You can
>>> wave your hands and talk about some unnamed people I've 'driven out' at the
>>> same time I point to the speakers I've brought to the language.
>>>
>>> "Please, change your attitude."
>>>
>>> My attitude is a direct response to being diminished and dismissed. I'll
>>> change it when that changes.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 1:53 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 14 Sep 2014 09:16, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > (it's not a secret that the intensity of community work has dropped
>>>> since 2003 which was shown earlier by la mukti's historical studies).
>>>>
>>>> What and where are these historical studies? Was 2003 the historical
>>>> peak?
>>>>
>>>> --And.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
>>>> Google Groups "lojban" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI/unsubscribe.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
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>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>  --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
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> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
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--047d7b343442a13a9905030b7b22
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I have never claimed that anyone, such as Gleki or Lojbab =
are &#39;unqualified&#39; for anything.<div><br></div><div>Pull out the log=
s if you want. I&#39;ll then pull out the reems of logs where I&#39;m intro=
ducing and holding the hands of new-comers - like I said.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>For flinging poo, my assesment of Lojbab has nothing to do with res=
pect of some idealizied grandfather figure - it has to do with his direct s=
peech in effortlessly minimizing other&#39;s he doesn&#39;t associate himse=
lf with. Of course Lojbab demands some sensibility of respect for what he&#=
39;s done - no doubt, I can thank him a thousand times for what he&#39;s do=
ne and still be utterly disgusted at his effortless bigotry. Just because h=
e uses neutral language to be a bigot doesn&#39;t mean he isn&#39;t being a=
 bigot. Maybe you can ask me to be neutral in my disgust of this out of han=
d bigotry sure fine. I&#39;ll try to be more neutral in my disgust from her=
e on out.</div><div><br></div><div>&quot;<span style=3D"font-family:arial,s=
ans-serif;font-size:12.7272720336914px">Last I checked, the reason why no c=
hanges are allowed&quot;</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,=
sans-serif;font-size:12.7272720336914px"><br></span></div><div><font face=
=3D"arial, sans-serif">This just brings us back to the circular &quot;exist=
ing intentions&quot; that no one who mentions them plans on executing them =
themselves. Always &#39;others&#39; who will finish this or that before we =
give our approval for anything else as we sit in our comfy arm-chairs.</fon=
t></div><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font f=
ace=3D"arial, sans-serif">This original proposal was a direct appeal to tak=
e action to resituate what exactly these &quot;preconditions to change&quot=
; are and how that process would work and invite the community to become in=
volved. ALL we have heard in this thread is &quot;The existing intention is=
 to have..&lt;insert tired shifting of decade old plans onto some &#39;unna=
med&#39; entity who will do the work I demand in my stead&gt;&quot;.</font>=
</div><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font fac=
e=3D"arial, sans-serif">I mean, fine, if this is the sediment that is left =
after this entire thread as been boiled away great. You get what you wish f=
or because no matter how many times you groan and say &#39;but but but ther=
e&#39;s these existing things that... well .. someone has to do first!&#39;=
 those words are not a magical spell that mystically summon some creature w=
illing to bide your will for you.</font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, san=
s-serif"><br></font></div><div>&quot;Oh my, your speech reflects how inane =
and trite and inbred the reality of Lojban has succumb too, how dare you! Y=
ou&#39;re a terrible person!&quot;<br><br>Fine I&#39;m a terrible person. I=
t doesn&#39;t change that the process for your language is broken, reader. =
Your language process is broken. Its broken. Breathe it in. Your language w=
ill die because it stands on a cult of personality. I guess you don&#39;t c=
are, reader. Shift it to someone else. Cover your eyes and plug your ears a=
nd rock yourself back into the comfortable stupor of pretending you actuall=
y care about a thing you can&#39;t be moved to affect in any real way excep=
t for squashing any realistic attempt to maintain the thing from the comfor=
t of your own inaction.<br><br>Or you know. Speak up? Maybe you don&#39;t e=
ven exist. And the audience here is laughably and tragically smaller than w=
e all believe.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 3:45 AM, Jonathan Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div><div>I&#39;ve been completely ignoring this topic pretty much sin=
ce I got the answer to my question. I personally have no interest in leader=
ship, all I care about is that whatever needs to be done, is done. As far a=
s the specific changes desired by what I&#39;m going to arbitrarily call &q=
uot;the selpa&#39;i group&quot;, I haven&#39;t paid enough attention to kno=
w what they are, so I can&#39;t give my opinion to them. If and when they a=
re put into a formal proposal to the BPFK, I&#39;ll review them and give th=
em my vote(s), as I&#39;m sure the other BPFK members will.<br><br></div>Th=
e reason for this missive is simple. Be respectful or shut up. I am not dir=
ecting that statement at any one person specifically, so if you think I mig=
ht be directing it at you, the reader, you&#39;re probably right. Petite bi=
ckering and insults will accomplish nothing.<br><br></div>Lojbab has himsel=
f admitted that he doesn&#39;t really keep up with Lojban&#39;s changes, he=
&#39;s even said he still doesn&#39;t understand what xorlo does. This does=
 not mean he is not deserving of respect. He is one of if not the founding =
father of Lojban, and has been involved to some extent since before its inc=
eption. He therefore has years of experience under his belt. At the very le=
ast, he knows better than probably anybody else what has been tried in the =
past, what failed, and why. Regardless of your personal feelings to the man=
&#39;s attitudes or mode of speech, he deserves respect at the very least f=
or those facts alone. I&#39;m my opinion he&#39;s pretty set in his ways an=
d a bit crotchety, but I don&#39;t consider either of those things to be ne=
gative. His is the force of historical imperative, for Lojban at least prac=
tically the embodiment of knowing history so as not to be doomed to repeat =
it.<br><br></div><div>The selpa&#39;i group obviously wants to make changes=
, and my passing glimpse leads me to believe that there&#39;s either a lot =
of them, or they&#39;re pretty big, or both. They say, and I have no eviden=
ce to the contrary, that the changes they desire are based on problems and =
optimizations they&#39;ve uncovered due to continued, daily use of the lang=
uage. The fact that this group has collectively strived to use Lojban, conv=
ersationally, in itself is deserving of respect. This is not obviously a Ba=
d Thing. After all, change is inevitable, regardless of the forces that act=
 to prevent it, and stagnation equals death, in all things. Theirs is the f=
orce of change, dynamism.<br><br></div><div>Neither of these things is bad,=
 nor are they good, but both are necessary. Change for the sake of change i=
s purposeless, but so is resistance to any change regardless of what it is.=
 Neither stagnation nor chaos is a desired outcome, as the former will kill=
 the language, and the latter will make it shatter into what amounts to uni=
ntelligible gibberish by any outside the group of users.<br><br></div><div>=
Lojban is currently a prescribed language, and at least until some point as=
 it becomes the common language of at least=20
one culture, as in the first and possibly only language this group=20
learns, I think it should remain as such. That means that every change in t=
he language that isn&#39;t formally approved by the maintaining body- the B=
PFK- is &quot;experimental&quot;. There&#39;s no way around it. There&#39;s=
 nothing keeping people from using experimental valsi, but those who do use=
 it have to accept the fact that because they are, they stand a large chanc=
e getting the response &quot;ki&#39;a [experimental valsi]&quot;. This was =
set up specifically to prevent language schisms. That doesn&#39;t mean that=
 changes to the language can not happen and never will, it means that there=
 is a system in place for formally making changes.<br><br></div><div>Last I=
 checked, the reason why no changes are allowed is because the cmavo have y=
et to be finished documented, or in other words, the baseline isn&#39;t com=
plete, which is the only requirement preventing change proposals from being=
 looked at and voted for approval. And, just as obviously, this barrier can=
 be circumvented given good enough reason, as happened with xorlo, and to a=
 lesser extent dotside, which as far as I&#39;m aware is actually still off=
icially an experimental change that just happens to be a simple and good en=
ough idea that everyone does it anyway. I personally wouldn&#39;t have a pr=
oblem with doing away with that barrier altogether, except that it seems to=
 be the only impetus anyone has for finishing the documentation, which, I s=
hould add, is pretty damned near finished. I would wager that if everyone w=
ho is in the Lojban Google Group took one cmavo and documented it, we&#39;d=
 be finished before everyone had a turn, and then the serious business of l=
ooking at and voting on approval of change proposals could commence.<br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t personally have a problem with selpa&#39=
;i taking on a leadership role in the community. If he wants it, he can hav=
e it, as far as I&#39;m concerned. It&#39;s not like Robin couldn&#39;t do =
with having some of the weight shifted to someone else&#39;s shoulders. I w=
ould willing to go so far as to allow selpa&#39;i, should he wish it, to ha=
ve all the, for lack of a better word, political power Robin currently has,=
 not including the veto or the power to select the BPFK membership, which I=
 would prefer remained in Robin&#39;s hands. I also wouldn&#39;t have a pro=
blem with selpa&#39;i having BPFK membership and the powers/duties that com=
e with that. I do, however, have to say that what I see proposed as far as =
this is concerned, looks more like a coup or a mutiny, and I certainly don&=
#39;t approve of that. I don&#39;t agree that the current system needs to b=
e changed. The problems aren&#39;t being caused by the members not caring, =
or being tyrannical, but simply by the fact that there are things that must=
 be done before the things that all of us - and I use &quot;all&quot; loose=
ly- want to happen, can happen.<br><br></div><div>Okay, this has gotten ver=
y ranty. In conclusion, I think everyone needs to step back, calm down, and=
 be civil. If you want change, do it by working with the current system, no=
t by trying to overthrow it. If you want some usage that is currently exper=
imental to become official, write up a proposal and submit it to the BPFK. =
More than likely it&#39;ll be put on the backburner until the documentation=
 is complete, but there&#39;s a simple fix for that, too- help finish the d=
ocumentation. But no matter where you stand, please at least try to keep pe=
rsonal attacks, insults, assumptions, and the like out of your position. A =
debate is a reasoned discourse wherein two or more sides attempt to show th=
e other(s) the benefits of their positions, an argument is a bunch of monke=
ys throw poo at each other. Stop being monkeys, put your poo in the toilet =
where it belongs.<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 3:30 AM, Du=
stin Lacewell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dlacewell@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">dlacewell@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr"><spa=
n>&quot;<span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.7272720336=
914px">My attitude is a direct response to being diminished and dismissed. =
I&#39;ll change it when that changes.&quot;<br><br></span></span><div><font=
 face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12.7272720336914px">I =
don&#39;t mean me, personally. I mean entire groups of people,=C2=A0</span>=
dismissed<span style=3D"font-size:12.7272720336914px">=C2=A0out right, out =
of hand.</span></font></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div class=3D"=
h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 1=
4, 2014 at 2:29 AM, Dustin Lacewell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:dlacewell@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dlacewell@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Gleki,<div><br></=
div><div>If all you have left is the tried and wearied approach of accusing=
 others of destroying the langauge and driving out speakers then ... wait t=
hat&#39;s what essentially every argument you put forth is founded on. You =
can wave your hands and talk about some unnamed people I&#39;ve &#39;driven=
 out&#39; at the same time I point to the speakers I&#39;ve brought to the =
language.</div><div><br></div><div>&quot;<span style=3D"font-family:arial,s=
ans-serif;font-size:12.7272720336914px">Please, change your attitude.&quot;=
</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.=
7272720336914px"><br></span></div><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif">My =
attitude is a direct response to being diminished and dismissed. I&#39;ll c=
hange it when that changes.</font></div></div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 1:53 AM, And=
 Rosta <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">and.rosta@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><span><p dir=3D"ltr">On 14 Sep 2014 09:16, &quot;Gleki Arxoku=
na&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; (it&#39;s not a secret that the intensity of community work has droppe=
d since 2003 which was shown earlier by la mukti&#39;s historical studies).=
</p>
</span><p dir=3D"ltr">What and where are these historical studies? Was 2003=
 the historical peak?</p><span><font color=3D"#888888">
<p dir=3D"ltr">--And.</p></font></span><div><div>

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</span></div></div></blockquote></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D=
"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><b=
r>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo=
9;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>
</font></span></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

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