Received: from mail-qc0-f186.google.com ([209.85.216.186]:61217) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XTGv8-0002dh-LX for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 14:01:19 -0700 Received: by mail-qc0-f186.google.com with SMTP id i8sf589452qcq.3 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 14:01:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=references:message-id:date:from:reply-to:subject:to:in-reply-to :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=GCdOAz9yKBSlX20EVY3m94vHg+gkoLGY3F2IKeuJ30U=; b=lqC7vSPpkmp53MRNpNAxE9veQ10szg2D7if1DnilOJfMt8/BBbI4lXSYicE8klDpu9 tA3Vn0tHWwbYjhnNX8VkZlJqy0IPA3fXDQ5CONpAttCxX0z4wfTSTK0UxPzOoyTxeuHI A5C19Mvq+yNPYpmrNT3ia9GTsER5LeeiN8jBGSyM/s9g02vROYTo1rPAjSF53LuTDsl3 FkO3SGTzXFB/dKIJQMRR0+nBobKjqi8FqUuRfUsj4KViPLOWNZ2M5Xsxb/gixB4p0i7+ Bw/p+KbUXgTQ0Suuaoqt10uANYCbezU+iuoSn3WMJr39IRxpzm8dv51wxt7FIQGBVN3T 7FQQ== X-Received: by 10.50.119.7 with SMTP id kq7mr167043igb.12.1410728471999; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 14:01:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.142.5 with SMTP id rs5ls1636957igb.26.gmail; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 14:01:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.187.193 with SMTP id fu1mr1305903pac.45.1410728471576; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 14:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm22-vm8.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (nm22-vm8.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com. [216.39.63.230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dp1si1025038pdb.2.2014.09.14.14.01.11 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Sep 2014 14:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.230 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.230; Received: from [216.39.60.167] by nm22.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2014 21:01:11 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.233] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2014 21:01:11 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1004.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2014 21:01:11 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 340795.12004.bm@omp1004.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 22462 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Sep 2014 21:01:10 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: Dwt5aJ0VM1nG1cNZmSOLLStW38nafkY54ijUeZZWYgFD1dJ teGEKN.8oKgZ6CLNiWZd_5dQxWJQd_oqdZFV6lcp8gOrkZsnH48ATrHRvxun nuk_mO1xZKNMH4iQLHkp5PuytspKmWPZAUwThZJR2seWAwvGu4cowI4hboQb mFKe8l9.GdZiA8DKVikbtl9.kh20vI55uwS6ardzp9V2JtXXVO.WzjmzSJ1B kaS7MMhSUV_uu0t6FujHVqI6HbrhX0j4cgyxg6SAP_v17jORJrlQhw7veEXF TWlgGdW2NQRV8Ufw4e2foRkPWSeVYcvyRmRUYLLpzP4oF2NEYz1dcfedQqdn cj_mYccXTdrr1W9XaKtjJv.odVqE4I9.BplYc2uFl8gsmTrPqOknHfHBsCoW RJaaTR5YD_vH_E3CVnR1f1JCuHwM3RTw2LDsiRYOEI8IHfCDyilSjSWYs.wz 8_twwpwxfbHHTY3RNzBPS8wWE517IJCr31RGFmY2g64HOKAk1y0l3wbsnJ.0 kvBKajXztx58LPkHpLBtiGuc59Ot_erueBgrL6RcB3YM812EUMO3ptCK8MeO J7spJ9nFQqOxCS6VfEM4FDg5iJKtWlBwqbl2LFS0N6rxEZjhW7aACFsdvGXG _Ti2gT_KZk.myFsRiHeTYtr3cLeNSnbZzT4fK7SriDXFG5EBSuZjcEYtIkYY tgQwVzR6xkwDAI1wDvjnULNGhwbtyVIdgFi6sqxBv Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 14:01:10 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,SnVzdCBiZWNhdXNlIG5vYm9keSB3YW50IHRvIGRvIGl0LCBkb2Vzbid0IG1lYW4gaXQgZG9lc24ndCBuZWVkIHRvIGJlIGRvbmUuICBTaW1pbGFybHksIGp1c3QgYmVjYXVzZSBzb21lYm9keSgvaWVzKSB3YW50IHRvIGNoYW5nZSB0aGluZ3MgYmFzZWQgb24gdXNhZ2UgZG9lc24ndCBtZWFuIHRoYXQgdGhleSAob3Igc29tZWJvZHkpIGRvZXNuJ3QgbmVlZCB0byB3cml0ZSB1cCBleHBsaWNpdCBhbmQgZGV0YWlsZWQgcmVwb3J0cyBvZiB3aGF0IHRoZXNlIHVzYWdlcyBhcmUuICBMb2piYW4gaXMgdGhlIG1vc3QBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <25B055499F67420FA34794323F9A95AB@gmail.com> <540B374A.9040409@lojban.org> <540B8D1B.8050807@gmail.com> <540F391F.5050002@lojban.org> <540F6802.3070709@gmail.com> <5410B7BF.9030005@lojban.org> <5411FCE9.3090907@lojban.org> <5414B97E.8050502@lojban.org> Message-ID: <1410728470.91224.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 14:01:10 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-910415156-1363402930-1410728470=:91224" X-Spam-Note: SpamAssassin invocation failed ---910415156-1363402930-1410728470=:91224 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just because nobody want to do it, doesn't mean it doesn't need to be done.= Similarly, just because somebody(/ies) want to change things based on usa= ge doesn't mean that they (or somebody) doesn't need to write up explicit a= nd detailed reports of what these usages are. Lojban is the most thoroughl= y described human language because it has to keep a check on its monoparsin= g. All usage has be be integrated into the grammar that makes that possibl= e. Right now the problem is (purportedly) that we don't know enough about = some old things (though the monoparsing claim continues) nor anything at al= l about some new things. As for the claim about the old things, I have bee= n trying to find out what is lacking but cannot find a clear statement in t= he morass of items under BPFK., cmavo, and related topics starting from the= homepage. I am sure all the material there somewhere but, after a dozen y= ears any organized list has been lost or dissipated. It is not even clear whether the problem is that there are cmavo that have no definition = (a likelihood, since at one time there seemed to be a new cmavo every week,= most of which then disappeared without a trace -- a good fate for cmavo ge= nerally, by the way), in which case it is not clear in what sense they exis= t at all, or, more likely, there are camavo whose definitions are somehow (= how?) incomplete (again raising the question in what sense they actually e= xist. Toki pona listed a word for several years and people speculated what= it meant until finally it was defined and turned out to be nothing needed = or wanted in the language). So, maybe if the list of needed fixes from the= old language were collected again (or resurrected -- it may actually be th= ere somewhere) and the irc group (and other innovators, of course) came up = with a list of their usages (which may, of course, turn out not to be new a= t all, given the state of lack of information about what is real), we can agree to finish off a description of the language (possibly contrad= ictory for the nonce) and sort back a satisfactory description ("satisfacto= ry" being the operant weasel here). On Sunday, September 14, 2014 2:47 PM, Dustin Lacewell wrote: =20 "The selpa'i group..." For what its worth, I don't really 'represent' 'selpahi's group' anymore. I= don't even know why this thread has continued so long. I just couldn't sta= nd having our community referred to as language destroying tinkerer's any l= onger. No one even wants to do the original thing anymore since no one who was off= ering to participate in what was originally proposed could possibly desire = to be seen as destroying the language, but that's what they were made out t= o be. We never intended for a coup, because a coup implies there is an exis= ting structure in place. We were simply trying fill what is actually a huge= glaring lack of one. But I guess the decayed ephemeral existence of one is= enough for this language. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---910415156-1363402930-1410728470=:91224 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just because nobody want to do it, doesn't mean it= doesn't need to be done.  Similarly, just because somebody(/ies) want= to change things based on usage doesn't mean that they (or somebody) doesn= 't need to write up explicit and detailed reports of what these usages are.=  Lojban is the most thoroughly described human language because it ha= s to keep a check on its monoparsing.  All usage has be be integrated = into the grammar that makes that possible.  Right now the problem is (= purportedly) that we don't know enough about some old things (though the mo= noparsing claim continues) nor anything at all about some new things.  = ;As for the claim about the old things, I have been trying to find out what= is lacking but cannot find a clear statement in the morass of items under BPFK., cmavo, and related topics starting from the homepage.  I= am sure all the material there somewhere but, after a dozen years any orga= nized list has been lost or dissipated.  It is not even clear whether = the problem is that there are cmavo that have no definition (a likelihood, = since at one time there seemed to be a new cmavo every week, most of which = then disappeared without a trace -- a good fate for cmavo generally, by the= way), in which case it is not clear in what sense they exist at all, or, m= ore likely, there are camavo whose definitions are somehow (how?)  inc= omplete (again raising the question in what sense they actually exist. &nbs= p;Toki pona listed a word for several years and people speculated what it m= eant until finally it was defined and turned out to be nothing needed or wa= nted in the language).  So, maybe if the list of needed fixes from the= old language were collected again (or resurrected -- it may actually be there somewhere) and the irc group (and other innovators, of c= ourse) came up with a list of their usages (which may, of course, turn out = not to be new at all, given the state of lack of information about what is = real), we can agree to finish off a description of the language (possibly c= ontradictory for the nonce) and sort back a satisfactory description ("sati= sfactory" being the operant weasel here).


On Sunday, September 14, 2014 2:47 PM, Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@= gmail.com> wrote:


"The selpa'i group..."=

For what its = worth, I don't really 'represent' 'selpahi's group' anymore. I don't even k= now why this thread has continued so long. I just couldn't stand having our= community referred to as language destroying tinkerer's any longer.
No one even wants to do the original thing anym= ore since no one who was offering to participate in what was originally pro= posed could possibly desire to be seen as destroying the language, but that= 's what they were made out to be. We never intended for a coup, because a c= oup implies there is an existing structure in place. We were simply trying = fill what is actually a huge glaring lack of one. But I guess the decayed e= phemeral existence of one is enough for this language.


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