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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 14:51:06 -0700
Message-ID: <CAMDmBpECwtq++bU+Xfjn9PTYH9BH4V0bU6=x+dzJ+qH+Z6FDjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership
From: Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com>
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John,

No doubt you're able to point out this or that that needs to be done. I bet
others can reference in their own words what they suppose is missing from
some baseline or whatever. Great. How is the idea of moving all of that
description into version control and giving selpahi the control of merging
changes into that repository somehow in conflict with missing cmavo
definitions?

There are essentially two things this thread was originally about.

  1) Moving the process for maintaining the language from a
mailing-list/wiki mixed with crudely (and often internally inconsistent)
processes and by-laws enforced by elected participants who may or may not
even still be interested in Lojban by the next time a meeting requiring
their attention and expertise is called...  to an open-source version
controlled 'consider-the-change-on-the-merits-of-the-change' system where
anyone can submit any change against the repository which can then be
considered for what it is by the community at large (or more importantly
individuals who are actually motivated to participate in that process).
Everybody can contribute and changes can be openly, and safely merged or
not merged in a very controlled and systematic manner.

 2) Reviewing the gimste for cohesiveness and regularity. We proposed to do
this review using the process above. Where anyone can comment on any of the
completely open and explicit individual proposed mutations to any
particular word, make their own proposals and argue against those they
disagree with.

Neither of these things actually conflict with the needs in other areas,
like finishing the cmavo definitions or any other arbitrarily prioritized
agenda. All the arguments about relearning, CLL's, are arguments
constructed to invoke fear of some fantasized destruction of the language.
Neither of these proposed motions of actions reduce an existing description
either. There is literally no substantiated argument against what we
proposed (an open democratic process for explicit management of the
language as data through version control and open-source policies for
review and integration) other than 'waa, I don't actually like losing what
sense of control I presume to have over the language'.

It amazing going back over the thread just how irrelevant and orthogonal
the supposed rebuking of this motion turned out to be.

The current system for organizing and funneling the fluttering and
whimsical productivity of Lojbanists for managing the language is bad. It
assumes long-term commitment by a few select individuals to stay completely
informed of a largish body of bylaws arbitrarily enforced between
completely irregular periods of active governance and pure silence mixed
with the demonstrable difficulty of actually being in-tune to how the
language is changing in its utilization in various communities. It
accumulates and forces processing of that work in larger batches instead of
continuous review and integration consideration.

Nothing about the proposed system violates anything about the needs to keep
the language completely described and actually does a better job than the
system that's being (quite terribly) defended in this thread.

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 2:01 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <
lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Just because nobody want to do it, doesn't mean it doesn't need to be
> done.  Similarly, just because somebody(/ies) want to change things based
> on usage doesn't mean that they (or somebody) doesn't need to write up
> explicit and detailed reports of what these usages are.  Lojban is the most
> thoroughly described human language because it has to keep a check on its
> monoparsing.  All usage has be be integrated into the grammar that makes
> that possible.  Right now the problem is (purportedly) that we don't know
> enough about some old things (though the monoparsing claim continues) nor
> anything at all about some new things.  As for the claim about the old
> things, I have been trying to find out what is lacking but cannot find a
> clear statement in the morass of items under BPFK., cmavo, and related
> topics starting from the homepage.  I am sure all the material there
> somewhere but, after a dozen years any organized list has been lost or
> dissipated.  It is not even clear whether the problem is that there are
> cmavo that have no definition (a likelihood, since at one time there seemed
> to be a new cmavo every week, most of which then disappeared without a
> trace -- a good fate for cmavo generally, by the way), in which case it is
> not clear in what sense they exist at all, or, more likely, there are
> camavo whose definitions are somehow (how?)  incomplete (again raising the
> question in what sense they actually exist.  Toki pona listed a word for
> several years and people speculated what it meant until finally it was
> defined and turned out to be nothing needed or wanted in the language).
>  So, maybe if the list of needed fixes from the old language were collected
> again (or resurrected -- it may actually be there somewhere) and the irc
> group (and other innovators, of course) came up with a list of their usages
> (which may, of course, turn out not to be new at all, given the state of
> lack of information about what is real), we can agree to finish off a
> description of the language (possibly contradictory for the nonce) and sort
> back a satisfactory description ("satisfactory" being the operant weasel
> here).
>
>
>   On Sunday, September 14, 2014 2:47 PM, Dustin Lacewell <
> dlacewell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> "The selpa'i group..."
>
> For what its worth, I don't really 'represent' 'selpahi's group' anymore.
> I don't even know why this thread has continued so long. I just couldn't
> stand having our community referred to as language destroying tinkerer's
> any longer.
>
> No one even wants to do the original thing anymore since no one who was
> offering to participate in what was originally proposed could possibly
> desire to be seen as destroying the language, but that's what they were
> made out to be. We never intended for a coup, because a coup implies there
> is an existing structure in place. We were simply trying fill what is
> actually a huge glaring lack of one. But I guess the decayed ephemeral
> existence of one is enough for this language.
>
>
> --
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>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">John,<div><br></div><div>No doubt you&#39;re able to point=
 out this or that that needs to be done. I bet others can reference in thei=
r own words what they suppose is missing from some baseline or whatever. Gr=
eat. How is the idea of moving all of that description into version control=
 and giving selpahi the control of merging changes into that repository som=
ehow in conflict with missing cmavo definitions?</div><div><br></div><div>T=
here are essentially two things this thread was originally about.=C2=A0</di=
v><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 1) Moving the process for maintaining the lang=
uage from a mailing-list/wiki mixed with crudely (and often internally inco=
nsistent) processes and by-laws enforced by elected participants who may or=
 may not even still be interested in Lojban by the next time a meeting requ=
iring their attention and expertise is called... =C2=A0to an open-source ve=
rsion controlled &#39;consider-the-change-on-the-merits-of-the-change&#39; =
system where anyone can submit any change against the repository which can =
then be considered for what it is by the community at large (or more import=
antly individuals who are actually motivated to participate in that process=
). Everybody can contribute and changes can be openly, and safely merged or=
 not merged in a very controlled and systematic manner.</div><div><br></div=
><div>=C2=A02) Reviewing the gimste for cohesiveness and regularity. We pro=
posed to do this review using the process above. Where anyone can comment o=
n any of the completely open and explicit individual proposed mutations to =
any particular word, make their own proposals and argue against those they =
disagree with.</div><div><br></div><div>Neither of these things actually co=
nflict with the needs in other areas, like finishing the cmavo definitions =
or any other arbitrarily prioritized agenda. All the arguments about relear=
ning, CLL&#39;s, are arguments constructed to invoke fear of some fantasize=
d destruction of the language. Neither of these proposed motions of actions=
 reduce an existing description either. There is literally no substantiated=
 argument against what we proposed (an open democratic process for explicit=
 management of the language as data through version control and open-source=
 policies for review and integration) other than &#39;waa, I don&#39;t actu=
ally like losing what sense of control I presume to have over the language&=
#39;.<br><br>It amazing going back over the thread just how irrelevant and =
orthogonal the supposed rebuking of this motion turned out to be.=C2=A0<br>=
<br>The current system for organizing and funneling the fluttering and whim=
sical productivity of Lojbanists for managing the language is bad. It assum=
es long-term commitment by a few select individuals to stay completely info=
rmed of a largish body of bylaws arbitrarily enforced between completely ir=
regular periods of active governance and pure silence mixed with the demons=
trable difficulty of actually being in-tune to how the language is changing=
 in its utilization in various communities. It accumulates and forces proce=
ssing of that work in larger batches instead of continuous review and integ=
ration consideration.</div><div><br></div><div>Nothing about the proposed s=
ystem violates anything about the needs to keep the language completely des=
cribed and actually does a better job than the system that&#39;s being (qui=
te terribly) defended in this thread.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 2:01 PM, &#39;John =
E Clifford&#39; via lojban <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@g=
ooglegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;backg=
round-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,L=
ucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Just because nobody want=
 to do it, doesn&#39;t mean it doesn&#39;t need to be done. =C2=A0Similarly=
, just because somebody(/ies) want to change things based on usage doesn=
9;t mean that they (or somebody) doesn&#39;t need to write up explicit and =
detailed reports of what these usages are. =C2=A0Lojban is the most thoroug=
hly described human language because it has to keep a check on its monopars=
ing. =C2=A0All usage has be be integrated into the grammar that makes that =
possible. =C2=A0Right now the problem is (purportedly) that we don&#39;t kn=
ow enough about some old things (though the monoparsing claim continues) no=
r anything at all about some new things. =C2=A0As for the claim about the o=
ld things, I have been trying to find out what is lacking but cannot find a=
 clear statement in the morass of items
 under BPFK., cmavo, and related topics starting from the homepage. =C2=A0I=
 am sure all the material there somewhere but, after a dozen years any orga=
nized list has been lost or dissipated. =C2=A0It is not even clear whether =
the problem is that there are cmavo that have no definition (a likelihood, =
since at one time there seemed to be a new cmavo every week, most of which =
then disappeared without a trace -- a good fate for cmavo generally, by the=
 way), in which case it is not clear in what sense they exist at all, or, m=
ore likely, there are camavo whose definitions are somehow (how?) =C2=A0inc=
omplete (again raising the question in what sense they actually exist. =C2=
=A0Toki pona listed a word for several years and people speculated what it =
meant until finally it was defined and turned out to be nothing needed or w=
anted in the language). =C2=A0So, maybe if the list of needed fixes from th=
e old language were collected again (or resurrected -- it may
 actually be there somewhere) and the irc group (and other innovators, of c=
ourse) came up with a list of their usages (which may, of course, turn out =
not to be new at all, given the state of lack of information about what is =
real), we can agree to finish off a description of the language (possibly c=
ontradictory for the nonce) and sort back a satisfactory description (&quot=
;satisfactory&quot; being the operant weasel here).</span></div> <div><br><=
br></div><div style=3D"display:block"> <div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaN=
eue,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,sans-s=
erif;font-size:12pt"> <div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,&#39;Helvetic=
a Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:12=
pt"><div><div class=3D"h5"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial"> On Sund=
ay, September 14, 2014 2:47 PM, Dustin Lacewell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dlace=
well@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dlacewell@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br> </=
font> </div>  <br><br> </div></div><div><div><div><div><div class=3D"h5"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div>&quot;<span style=3D"font-size:12.7272720336914px;font-=
family:arial,sans-serif">The selpa&#39;i group...&quot;</span><br clear=3D"=
none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>For what its worth, I don&#39;t r=
eally &#39;represent&#39; &#39;selpahi&#39;s group&#39; anymore. I don&#39;=
t even know why this thread has continued so long. I just couldn&#39;t stan=
d having our community referred to as language destroying tinkerer&#39;s an=
y longer.<div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>No one even wants to do the ori=
ginal thing anymore since no one who was offering to participate in what wa=
s originally proposed could possibly desire to be seen as destroying the la=
nguage, but that&#39;s what they were made out to be. We never intended for=
 a coup, because a coup implies there is an existing structure in place. We=
 were simply trying fill what is actually a huge glaring lack of one. But I=
 guess the decayed ephemeral existence of one is enough for this language.<=
/div><div><div><br clear=3D"none"><div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div=
></div></div></div><span class=3D""><div>


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<p></p>

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