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Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 15:48:21 -0700
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Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership
From: Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com>
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John

Well that doesn't seem to be disagreeable at all. I mean a large implied
fallacy in the thread has seemed to be that selpahi doesn't also want the
best for lojban and for it to reflect its foundations in first order
predicate logic, be monoparsable, be completely described, be useful as a
spoken language and so on. I mean, I can say he really does but it is
pretty clear from talking to him for 5 minutes if one were to ask him. That
goes the same with all the jbocre in the IRC community like durka and tsani
and xalbo and others. I think you know that's true, as you've been around
during lots of their debates. They're hardly casuals, right John?

I think that's a quality of the community that people outside it are
missing. That its not like the thoughts surrounding how we go about this or
the changes are inspiring the need for an actually workable system of
governance are not well thought out and dragged through several on-going
reoccurring internal debates. I'm not saying 'we have the best community'.
I'm saying look, we have a non-trivial community with, sure call it a
dialect, as the result of lots of usage and consideration and there is no
non-ethereal mechanism for actually moving such evolutions in usage back to
the wider community. That isn't 'we have something's we'd like to force
everyone else to do'. We objectively went out of our way to prompt a
community that is otherwise *not* providing a realistic (and in my opinon
not patently absurd) mechanism and process for doing that. One that you at
least seem to view as passable if not potentially advantageous. Seriously,
everyone else, when you remove the pretext fetish of making us out to want
to destroy the language and insulting holders of CLLs and somehow undoing
the very fabric of the community, what is so bad about what was -actually-
proposed?

I guess its a rhetorical question and I'm not actually expressing hope that
we can some how actually move forward. Hope was lost long ago. If certain
people can stop insulting and trivializing my friends with a smile  of
implied virtue, then I wont have to keep defending them (though I'm sure
they wish I'd stop anyway).


On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 3:24 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <
lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
> To the initial question  the answer is "Not at all", though with the
> proviso that whoever takes on the task shares the goal of producing a
> monoparsing grammar.  I admit I am not convinced that this is among David's
> agenda, but then I am not convinced it really plays that much of a role in
> other people's agenda either.  The process you propose is a normalization
> of the de facto process that Lojban has used for a couple decades just now
> being recognized and made effective.  No objection to that, again with the
> proviso that the discussion keeps monoparsing ever in view and that changes
> that disrupt this feature are either automatically rejected or are farmed
> out for a thorough-going fix to bring them into the fold.  If it does away
> with bureaucratic inertia, better yet.  (Having been around this particular
> project for nearly forty years, I can reasonably predict ways that this
> will crash and burn, but that doesn't seem a reason to not do it, since the
> crashing and burning of another sort is already rather far advanced and
> this may slow that down at least for my lifetime.)
>
>
>
>   On Sunday, September 14, 2014 4:51 PM, Dustin Lacewell <
> dlacewell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> John,
>
> No doubt you're able to point out this or that that needs to be done. I
> bet others can reference in their own words what they suppose is missing
> from some baseline or whatever. Great. How is the idea of moving all of
> that description into version control and giving selpahi the control of
> merging changes into that repository somehow in conflict with missing cmavo
> definitions?
>
> There are essentially two things this thread was originally about.
>
>   1) Moving the process for maintaining the language from a
> mailing-list/wiki mixed with crudely (and often internally inconsistent)
> processes and by-laws enforced by elected participants who may or may not
> even still be interested in Lojban by the next time a meeting requiring
> their attention and expertise is called...  to an open-source version
> controlled 'consider-the-change-on-the-merits-of-the-change' system where
> anyone can submit any change against the repository which can then be
> considered for what it is by the community at large (or more importantly
> individuals who are actually motivated to participate in that process).
> Everybody can contribute and changes can be openly, and safely merged or
> not merged in a very controlled and systematic manner.
>
>  2) Reviewing the gimste for cohesiveness and regularity. We proposed to
> do this review using the process above. Where anyone can comment on any of
> the completely open and explicit individual proposed mutations to any
> particular word, make their own proposals and argue against those they
> disagree with.
>
> Neither of these things actually conflict with the needs in other areas,
> like finishing the cmavo definitions or any other arbitrarily prioritized
> agenda. All the arguments about relearning, CLL's, are arguments
> constructed to invoke fear of some fantasized destruction of the language.
> Neither of these proposed motions of actions reduce an existing description
> either. There is literally no substantiated argument against what we
> proposed (an open democratic process for explicit management of the
> language as data through version control and open-source policies for
> review and integration) other than 'waa, I don't actually like losing what
> sense of control I presume to have over the language'.
>
> It amazing going back over the thread just how irrelevant and orthogonal
> the supposed rebuking of this motion turned out to be.
>
> The current system for organizing and funneling the fluttering and
> whimsical productivity of Lojbanists for managing the language is bad. It
> assumes long-term commitment by a few select individuals to stay completely
> informed of a largish body of bylaws arbitrarily enforced between
> completely irregular periods of active governance and pure silence mixed
> with the demonstrable difficulty of actually being in-tune to how the
> language is changing in its utilization in various communities. It
> accumulates and forces processing of that work in larger batches instead of
> continuous review and integration consideration.
>
> Nothing about the proposed system violates anything about the needs to
> keep the language completely described and actually does a better job than
> the system that's being (quite terribly) defended in this thread.
>
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 2:01 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <
> lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Just because nobody want to do it, doesn't mean it doesn't need to be
> done.  Similarly, just because somebody(/ies) want to change things based
> on usage doesn't mean that they (or somebody) doesn't need to write up
> explicit and detailed reports of what these usages are.  Lojban is the most
> thoroughly described human language because it has to keep a check on its
> monoparsing.  All usage has be be integrated into the grammar that makes
> that possible.  Right now the problem is (purportedly) that we don't know
> enough about some old things (though the monoparsing claim continues) nor
> anything at all about some new things.  As for the claim about the old
> things, I have been trying to find out what is lacking but cannot find a
> clear statement in the morass of items under BPFK., cmavo, and related
> topics starting from the homepage.  I am sure all the material there
> somewhere but, after a dozen years any organized list has been lost or
> dissipated.  It is not even clear whether the problem is that there are
> cmavo that have no definition (a likelihood, since at one time there seemed
> to be a new cmavo every week, most of which then disappeared without a
> trace -- a good fate for cmavo generally, by the way), in which case it is
> not clear in what sense they exist at all, or, more likely, there are
> camavo whose definitions are somehow (how?)  incomplete (again raising the
> question in what sense they actually exist.  Toki pona listed a word for
> several years and people speculated what it meant until finally it was
> defined and turned out to be nothing needed or wanted in the language).
>  So, maybe if the list of needed fixes from the old language were collected
> again (or resurrected -- it may actually be there somewhere) and the irc
> group (and other innovators, of course) came up with a list of their usages
> (which may, of course, turn out not to be new at all, given the state of
> lack of information about what is real), we can agree to finish off a
> description of the language (possibly contradictory for the nonce) and sort
> back a satisfactory description ("satisfactory" being the operant weasel
> here).
>
>
>   On Sunday, September 14, 2014 2:47 PM, Dustin Lacewell <
> dlacewell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> "The selpa'i group..."
>
> For what its worth, I don't really 'represent' 'selpahi's group' anymore.
> I don't even know why this thread has continued so long. I just couldn't
> stand having our community referred to as language destroying tinkerer's
> any longer.
>
> No one even wants to do the original thing anymore since no one who was
> offering to participate in what was originally proposed could possibly
> desire to be seen as destroying the language, but that's what they were
> made out to be. We never intended for a coup, because a coup implies there
> is an existing structure in place. We were simply trying fill what is
> actually a huge glaring lack of one. But I guess the decayed ephemeral
> existence of one is enough for this language.
>
>
> --
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>
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--089e011604e8af883605030e50ad
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">John<div><br></div><div>Well that doesn&#39;t seem to be d=
isagreeable at all. I mean a large implied fallacy in the thread has seemed=
 to be that selpahi doesn&#39;t also want the best for lojban and for it to=
 reflect its foundations in first order predicate logic, be monoparsable, b=
e completely described, be useful as a spoken language and so on. I mean, I=
 can say he really does but it is pretty clear from talking to him for 5 mi=
nutes if one were to ask him. That goes the same with all the jbocre in the=
 IRC community like durka and tsani and xalbo and others. I think you know =
that&#39;s true, as you&#39;ve been around during lots of their debates. Th=
ey&#39;re hardly casuals, right John?</div><div><br></div><div>I think that=
&#39;s a quality of the community that people outside it are missing. That =
its not like the thoughts surrounding how we go about this or the changes a=
re inspiring the need for an actually workable system of governance are not=
 well thought out and dragged through several on-going reoccurring internal=
 debates. I&#39;m not saying &#39;we have the best community&#39;. I&#39;m =
saying look, we have a non-trivial community with, sure call it a dialect, =
as the result of lots of usage and consideration and there is no non-ethere=
al mechanism for actually moving such evolutions in usage back to the wider=
 community. That isn&#39;t &#39;we have something&#39;s we&#39;d like to fo=
rce everyone else to do&#39;. We objectively went out of our way to prompt =
a community that is otherwise *not* providing a realistic (and in my opinon=
 not patently absurd) mechanism and process for doing that. One that you at=
 least seem to view as passable if not potentially advantageous. Seriously,=
 everyone else, when you remove the pretext fetish of making us out to want=
 to destroy the language and insulting holders of CLLs and somehow undoing =
the very fabric of the community, what is so bad about what was -actually- =
proposed?<br><br>I guess its a rhetorical question and I&#39;m not actually=
 expressing hope that we can some how actually move forward. Hope was lost =
long ago. If certain people can stop insulting and trivializing my friends =
with a smile =C2=A0of implied virtue, then I wont have to keep defending th=
em (though I&#39;m sure they wish I&#39;d stop anyway).</div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote">On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 3:24 PM, &#39;John E Clifford&#39; via lojban =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-fami=
ly:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt"><div><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;=
font-family:HelveticaNeue,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,&#39;Luc=
ida Grande&#39;,sans-serif;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent">=
To the initial question =C2=A0the answer is &quot;Not at all&quot;, though =
with the proviso that whoever takes on the task shares the goal of producin=
g a monoparsing grammar. =C2=A0I admit I am not convinced that this is amon=
g David&#39;s agenda, but then I am not convinced it really plays that much=
 of a role in other people&#39;s agenda either. =C2=A0The process you propo=
se is a normalization of the de facto process that Lojban has used for a co=
uple decades just now being recognized and made effective. =C2=A0No objecti=
on to that, again with the proviso that the discussion keeps monoparsing ev=
er in view and
 that changes that disrupt this feature are either automatically rejected o=
r are farmed out for a thorough-going fix to bring them into the fold. =C2=
=A0If it does away with bureaucratic inertia, better yet. =C2=A0(Having bee=
n around this particular project for nearly forty years, I can reasonably p=
redict ways that this will crash and burn, but that doesn&#39;t seem a reas=
on to not do it, since the crashing and burning of another sort is already =
rather far advanced and this may slow that down at least for my lifetime.)<=
/div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:16px;f=
ont-family:HelveticaNeue,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,&#39;Luci=
da Grande&#39;,sans-serif;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent"><=
br></div> <div><br><br></div><div style=3D"display:block"> <div style=3D"fo=
nt-family:HelveticaNeue,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,&#39;Lucid=
a Grande&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style=3D"font-family:Helveti=
caNeue,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,san=
s-serif;font-size:12pt"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial"> On Sunday,=
 September 14, 2014 4:51 PM, Dustin Lacewell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dlacewel=
l@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dlacewell@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br> </fon=
t> </div>  <br><br> <div><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr">John,<div><br clear=3D"=
none"></div><div>No doubt you&#39;re able to point out this or that that ne=
eds to be done. I bet others can reference in their own words what they sup=
pose is missing from some baseline or whatever. Great. How is the idea of m=
oving all of that description into version control and giving selpahi the c=
ontrol of merging changes into that repository somehow in conflict with mis=
sing cmavo definitions?</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>There are e=
ssentially two things this thread was originally about.=C2=A0</div><div><br=
 clear=3D"none"></div><div>=C2=A0 1) Moving the process for maintaining
 the language from a mailing-list/wiki mixed with crudely (and often intern=
ally inconsistent) processes and by-laws enforced by elected participants w=
ho may or may not even still be interested in Lojban by the next time a mee=
ting requiring their attention and expertise is called... =C2=A0to an open-=
source version controlled &#39;consider-the-change-on-the-merits-of-the-cha=
nge&#39; system where anyone can submit any change against the repository w=
hich can then be considered for what it is by the community at large (or mo=
re importantly individuals who are actually motivated to participate in tha=
t process). Everybody can contribute and changes can be openly, and safely =
merged or not merged in a very controlled and systematic manner.</div><div>=
<br clear=3D"none"></div><div>=C2=A02) Reviewing the gimste for cohesivenes=
s and regularity. We proposed to do this review using the process above. Wh=
ere anyone can comment on any of the completely open and explicit individua=
l
 proposed mutations to any particular word, make their own proposals and ar=
gue against those they disagree with.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><d=
iv>Neither of these things actually conflict with the needs in other areas,=
 like finishing the cmavo definitions or any other arbitrarily prioritized =
agenda. All the arguments about relearning, CLL&#39;s, are arguments constr=
ucted to invoke fear of some fantasized destruction of the language. Neithe=
r of these proposed motions of actions reduce an existing description eithe=
r. There is literally no substantiated argument against what we proposed (a=
n open democratic process for explicit management of the language as data t=
hrough version control and open-source policies for review and integration)=
 other than &#39;waa, I don&#39;t actually like losing what sense of contro=
l I presume to have over the language&#39;.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"=
none">It amazing going back over the thread just how irrelevant and orthogo=
nal the
 supposed rebuking of this motion turned out to be.=C2=A0<br clear=3D"none"=
><br clear=3D"none">The current system for organizing and funneling the flu=
ttering and whimsical productivity of Lojbanists for managing the language =
is bad. It assumes long-term commitment by a few select individuals to stay=
 completely informed of a largish body of bylaws arbitrarily enforced betwe=
en completely irregular periods of active governance and pure silence mixed=
 with the demonstrable difficulty of actually being in-tune to how the lang=
uage is changing in its utilization in various communities. It accumulates =
and forces processing of that work in larger batches instead of continuous =
review and integration consideration.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><d=
iv>Nothing about the proposed system violates anything about the needs to k=
eep the language completely described and actually does a better job than t=
he system that&#39;s being (quite terribly) defended in this
 thread.</div></div><div><br clear=3D"none"><div>On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 2:=
01 PM, &#39;John E Clifford&#39; via lojban <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D=
"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D=
"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><b=
lockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:HelveticaNeue,&=
#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,sans-serif;=
font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div><span>Just because n=
obody want to do it, doesn&#39;t mean it doesn&#39;t need to be done. =C2=
=A0Similarly, just because somebody(/ies) want to change things based on us=
age doesn&#39;t mean that they (or somebody) doesn&#39;t
 need to write up explicit and detailed reports of what these usages are. =
=C2=A0Lojban is the most thoroughly described human language because it has=
 to keep a check on its monoparsing. =C2=A0All usage has be be integrated i=
nto the grammar that makes that possible. =C2=A0Right now the problem is (p=
urportedly) that we don&#39;t know enough about some old things (though the=
 monoparsing claim continues) nor anything at all about some new things. =
=C2=A0As for the claim about the old things, I have been trying to find out=
 what is lacking but cannot find a clear statement in the morass of items
 under BPFK., cmavo, and related topics starting from the homepage. =C2=A0I=
 am sure all the material there somewhere but, after a dozen years any orga=
nized list has been lost or dissipated. =C2=A0It is not even clear whether =
the problem is that there are cmavo that have no definition (a likelihood, =
since at one time there seemed to be a new cmavo every week, most of which =
then disappeared without a trace -- a good fate for cmavo generally, by the=
 way), in which case it is not clear in what sense they exist at all, or, m=
ore likely, there are camavo whose definitions are somehow (how?) =C2=A0inc=
omplete (again raising the question in what sense they actually exist. =C2=
=A0Toki pona listed a word for several years and people speculated what it =
meant until finally it was defined and turned out to be nothing needed or w=
anted in the language). =C2=A0So, maybe if the list of needed fixes from th=
e old language were collected again (or resurrected -- it may
 actually be there somewhere) and the irc group (and other innovators, of c=
ourse) came up with a list of their usages (which may, of course, turn out =
not to be new at all, given the state of lack of information about what is =
real), we can agree to finish off a description of the language (possibly c=
ontradictory for the nonce) and sort back a satisfactory description (&quot=
;satisfactory&quot; being the operant weasel here).</span></div> <div><br c=
lear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"display:block"> <div s=
tyle=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,=
&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style=3D"font-fami=
ly:HelveticaNeue,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,&#39;Lucida Grand=
e&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=
=3D"Arial"> On Sunday, September 14, 2014 2:47 PM, Dustin Lacewell &lt;<a r=
el=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:dlacewell@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dlacewell@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"> </font> <=
/div>  <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"> </div></div><div><div><div><d=
iv><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>&quot;<span style=3D"font-size:12.72727203369=
14px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">The selpa&#39;i group...&quot;</span><br=
 clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>For what its worth, I d=
on&#39;t really &#39;represent&#39; &#39;selpahi&#39;s group&#39; anymore. =
I don&#39;t even know why this thread has continued so long. I just couldn&=
#39;t stand having our community referred to as language destroying tinkere=
r&#39;s any longer.<div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>No one even wants to =
do the original thing anymore since no one who was offering to participate =
in what was originally proposed could possibly desire to be seen as destroy=
ing the language, but that&#39;s what they were made out to be. We never in=
tended for a coup, because a coup implies there is an existing structure in=
 place. We
 were simply trying fill what is actually a huge glaring lack of one. But I=
 guess the decayed ephemeral existence of one is enough for this language.<=
/div><div><div><br clear=3D"none"><div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div=
></div></div></div><span></span><div>


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