Received: from mail-yk0-f184.google.com ([209.85.160.184]:62731) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XTJ7q-00033l-38 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 16:22:35 -0700 Received: by mail-yk0-f184.google.com with SMTP id 131sf675187ykp.21 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 16:22:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=9DMz9uOS4OEwqp+JCKb+ad9xflkspo+woXXDm8srJMU=; b=gvMJEPZGkUYmMUjuzmFJjFsLPQOr6IWIeSGhe8E2Qn6oBcjY9uaa3HzKhPhUbo246n psDmrCqGbjCC2+BoCGg96PmJOzQHNdvWjvikic2rZbh02TwPkRWy7ac7X62/R8kpNHjj uXuZaIHRfqDgWp4TzmuXrycV+vUJhbrinnWckUMPEQI/+GNrIedYRd2eieAchQPYx4b4 quvwizvIIB5BL2w2tUm3T8MoXJ1PC6nez2Iwsc5NLewht8hWCAE6dK0PhB+Hya4/5f4o aliJdU4zqgVWnMM0kVhSIQoyVr//VXR7+9lXAisPnr5vb2aWD7NL5i6XIGXQS/PifmdW 71TQ== X-Received: by 10.182.246.69 with SMTP id xu5mr840obc.9.1410736947744; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 16:22:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.128.70 with SMTP id nm6ls489747obb.55.gmail; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 16:22:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.135.194 with SMTP id pu2mr12459122obb.35.1410736947246; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 16:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x235.google.com (mail-vc0-x235.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::235]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ew8si109159vdb.1.2014.09.14.16.22.27 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Sep 2014 16:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::235; Received: by mail-vc0-f181.google.com with SMTP id ij19so2703926vcb.40 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 16:22:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.34.104 with SMTP id y8mr16837594vdi.37.1410736947110; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 16:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.204.203 with HTTP; Sun, 14 Sep 2014 16:22:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5415B8C0.4030003@gmx.de> References: <5415B8C0.4030003@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 20:22:27 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The White Knight (Through the Looking Glass) From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::235 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf30780ab09aa6c605030eca65 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --20cf30780ab09aa6c605030eca65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nice work. I have a couple of comments: The ungrammatical incomplete sentence in lu-li'u quotes makes me much more uncomfortable than if it was an incomplete sentence standing on its own. It's understandable when a sentence is ungrammatical because the speaker didn't finish it, because they were interrupted, got sidetracked or whatever, but it's different when the missing words are not at the end of the sentence, i.e. in this case when "li'u" appears in an ungrammatical position. I don't know what the general answer should be for how to quote interrupted sentences (you obviously felt as I do that lo'u-le'u as a cop-out is unsatisfying), but in this case you could just avoid the issue by using "i jo nai" instead of "go nai ... gi ...".. The second comment is about "ba'e" in: -.i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu - na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra ba'e cmene lo cmene Assuming the emphasis marks the rheme/comment as opposed to the theme/topic, I would expect the "ba'e" on the second cmene. The first cmene just repeats Alice's sentence, so it's not what the White Knight is correcting. I understand the sentence structure is somewhat different in Lojban than in the original, but the "ba'e" there just sounds off to me. mu'o mi'e xorxes On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 12:48 PM, selpa'i wrote: > coi jbopre > > I was just looking through my files and found an old translated passage > from *Through the Looking Glass*. It's the part where the White Knight > talks to Alice about his song. I thought I'd share it: > > > ni'o =C2=ABlu lo selsa'a cu clani =E2=80=94sei la xirsoi cu cusku=E2= =80=94 gi'e ku'i ba'e > *mutce* lo ka melbi .i ro da poi tirna lo nu mi sanga sy zo'u go nai da > ba'e *klaku *gi =E2=80=A6 li'u=C2=BB > > ni'o =C2=ABlu go nai klaku gi mo =E2=80=94sei la .alis. mu'i lo nu la xi= rsoi pu suksa > lo ka de'a tavla cu cusku=E2=80=94 li'u=C2=BB > > ni'o =C2=ABlu go nai klaku gi na klaku li'a .i lo cmene be lo selsa'a cu > selcme =C2=ABlu lo kanla be lo xekli'ifi'e li'u=C2=BB li'u=C2=BB > > ni'o =C2=ABlu ua .i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu =E2=80=94sei la .alis. cu = cusku be fau > lo nu .abu troci lo ka se cinri=E2=80=94 li'u=C2=BB > > ni'o =C2=ABlu na go'i .i do na jimpe =E2=80=94sei la xirsoi fau lo nu si= mlu lo ka se > fanza milxe cu cusku=E2=80=94 .i ra ba'e *cmene *lo cmene .i lo cmene cu = ba'e *du > *=C2=ABlu lo laldo laldo nanmu li'u=C2=BB li'u=C2=BB > > ni'o =C2=ABlu va'o ku .ei mi pu cusku =C2=ABlu xu ri cmene lo ba'e *sels= a'a* li'u=C2=BB > =E2=80=94sei la .alis. cu sevzi dragau=E2=80=94 li'u=C2=BB > > ni'o =C2=ABlu ie nai .i .ei na go'i .i frica mutce .i lo ba'e* selsa'a* = cu > selcme =C2=ABlu lo tamsmi jo'u lo tadji li'u=C2=BB .i ku'i ri sy ba'e *cm= ene *po'o > .i xu do jimpe li'u=C2=BB > > ni'o =C2=ABlu .y va'o ku ma ba'e *du *lo selsa'a =E2=80=94sei la .alis. = noi ca mulno > lo ka se cfipu cu cusku=E2=80=94 li'u=C2=BB > > ni'o =C2=ABlu mi pu pu'o casnu la'e di'u =E2=80=94sei la xirsoi cu cusku= =E2=80=94 .i lo > selsa'a cu ba'e *du *je'u =C2=ABlu lo nu zutse lo vrogai li'u=C2=BB .i je= lo > selsa'a cu se finti lo sevzi be mi li'u=C2=BB > > mi'e la selpa'i mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --20cf30780ab09aa6c605030eca65 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nice work. I have a couple of comments:

The ungrammatical incomplete sentence in lu-li'u quotes makes me much = more uncomfortable than if it was an incomplete sentence standing on its ow= n. It's understandable when a sentence is ungrammatical because the spe= aker didn't finish it, because they were interrupted, got sidetracked o= r whatever, but it's different when the missing words are not at the en= d of the sentence, i.e. in this case when "li'u" appears in a= n ungrammatical position. I don't know what the general answer should b= e for how to quote interrupted sentences (you obviously felt as I do that l= o'u-le'u as a cop-out is unsatisfying), but in this case you could = just avoid the issue by using "i jo nai" instead of "go nai = ... gi ..."..=C2=A0

The second comment is abo= ut "ba'e" in:

-.i ri cmene lo selsa&= #39;a ku xu
- na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra ba'e cmene lo = cmene

Assuming the emphasis marks the rheme/commen= t as opposed to the theme/topic, I would expect the "ba'e" on= the second cmene. The first cmene just repeats Alice's sentence, so it= 's not what the White Knight is correcting. I understand the sentence s= tructure is somewhat different in Lojban than in the original, but the &quo= t;ba'e" there just sounds off to me.

mu&#= 39;o mi'e xorxes

<= br>
On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 12:48 PM, selpa'i= <= seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
coi jbopre

I was just looking throug= h my files and found an old translated passage from Through the Looking Glass. It's the part where the White Knight talks to Alice about his song. I thought I'd share it:
ni'o =C2=AB= lu lo selsa'a cu clani =E2=80=94sei la xirsoi cu cusku=E2= =80=94 gi'e ku'i ba'e mutce lo ka melbi .i ro da poi tirna lo nu mi sanga sy zo'u go nai da ba'e klaku g= i =E2=80=A6 li'u=C2=BB

ni'o =C2=ABlu go nai klaku gi mo =E2=80=94sei la .ali= s. mu'i lo nu la xirsoi pu suksa lo ka de'a tavla cu cusku=E2=80=94= li'u=C2=BB

ni'o =C2=ABlu go nai klaku gi na klaku li'a .i lo= cmene be lo selsa'a cu selcme =C2=ABlu lo kanla be lo xekli= 9;ifi'e li'u=C2=BB li'u=C2=BB
ni'o =C2=ABlu ua .i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu =E2= =80=94sei la .alis. cu cusku be fau lo nu .abu troci lo ka se cinri=E2=80=94 li'u=C2=BB
ni'o =C2=ABlu na go'i .i do na jimpe =E2=80=94sei= la xirsoi fau lo nu simlu lo ka se fanza milxe cu cusku=E2=80=94 .i ra ba'e cmene lo cmene .i lo cmene cu ba'e du =C2=ABlu lo laldo laldo nanmu li'u=C2=BB li'u= =C2=BB
ni'o =C2=ABlu va'o ku .ei mi pu cusku =C2=ABlu xu= ri cmene lo ba'e selsa'a li'u=C2=BB =E2=80=94sei l= a .alis. cu sevzi dragau=E2=80=94 li'u=C2=BB
ni'o =C2=ABlu ie nai .i .ei na go'i .i frica mutc= e .i lo ba'e selsa'a cu selcme =C2=ABlu lo tamsmi = jo'u lo tadji li'u=C2=BB .i ku'i ri sy ba'e cmene = po'o .i xu do jimpe li'u=C2=BB
ni'o =C2=ABlu .y va'o ku ma ba'e du lo= selsa'a =E2=80=94sei la .alis. noi ca mulno lo ka se cfipu cu cus= ku=E2=80=94 li'u=C2=BB
ni'o =C2=ABlu mi pu pu'o casnu la'e di'u = =E2=80=94sei la xirsoi cu cusku=E2=80=94 .i lo selsa'a cu ba'e du je= 'u =C2=ABlu lo nu zutse lo vrogai li'u=C2=BB .i je lo selsa'a cu= se finti lo sevzi be mi li'u=C2=BB

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

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