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[216.109.114.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id im3si995429qcb.1.2014.09.15.08.37.40 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Sep 2014 08:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.114.41; Received: from [66.196.81.165] by nm18.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Sep 2014 15:37:38 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.148] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Sep 2014 15:37:38 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1024.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Sep 2014 15:37:38 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 150792.21247.bm@omp1024.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 9517 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Sep 2014 15:37:37 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 47L.u8YVM1kdUBKI4.ju5nXwK4_P5rJ0AlyFy9ueRnn9D8H U.QefGaRzKXgLb7_gVXKVhqAfkRGOSdtl8BvKO3Q_fx_jda.KrkFNTv6MOK9 MLoCjfetYFEoNfQchKBYEGwFDNLZrdvtfBxyamMRC7.fwrUA52FTD9QgCWkk 7I2aUfgUnHy7LUfL516j5Mwou1i.ThPwC8FmGjmw.YVjCqNMcAEOhp1AONqZ McZC9bU71lMinAHxEKRGnU5.a_CsFYwZXbVb42kFsUV5GQnpBys4cmbSdtsg Sv_FKMYBCZPMpNJFWxZLjQEOSqDKDVZeqjKsjF.gzdLYyUsQFGdN6YhwpM5h Hda6f6gqsmSHZY6vFl7SRsNxdGiOlsmKHOLNzocnc4JMpP4Bf_h1ngFbilq7 ogdJ28NmRffxL3Tgw9vkxzB6ZNmCcznPXqCaHp01J2AMmQb52.7x8Mcte1XU YTyNyFAAs.a0cjsgGYMmAkBNii6loEV5MADr7ZdxsLl8LsOuKwkO.zlI7k2Y XYcFJx86TAXvP2bqbpdraHIJBLbst5THMarEOCl9EQTOS.f0gbe43jgo6Z.y dsFm.b20u_EUFvNy8ErpUXvulnO8aX2_NQKR4R8_Yv4.ocLS3DfzVDPLb_89 5nGQbSs0vlkLiBoXAkWbl86nzST1CoM9bmb8rrUxWgnXhcaCxu5qGBDdo_F3 1Gva07oT08rw2vkpuhTWdybpwfRU2oGVFdEixdRRrBq8- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 08:37:37 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,TG9naWNpYW4ncyBsb3ZlIHRoaXMgcGFzc2FnZSBmb3IgYWxsIHRoZSBpbnRlcnBsYXkgb2YgdXNlIGFuZCBtZW50aW9uIHRoYXQgaXQgaW52b2x2ZXMuICBUaGUgYWRkZWQgY29tcGxpY2F0aW9uIG9mIHRoZSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlIGJldHdlZW4gd2hhdCBhIHRoaW5nIGlzIGNhbGxlZCBhbmQgd2hhdCBpdHMgbmFtZSBpcyBpcyBqdXN0IHRocm93biBpbiBmb3IgZnJlZSAoSSB0aGluayAtLSBEb2Rnc29uIG1heSBoYXZlIGhhZCBhbm90aGVyIGFnZW5kYSB0aGVyZSB0aGF0IEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyBhYm91dCkuICABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5415B8C0.4030003@gmx.de> <5416B55B.9030302@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1410795457.2611.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 08:37:37 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] The White Knight (Through the Looking Glass) To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-910415156-1787862531-1410795457=:2611" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ---910415156-1787862531-1410795457=:2611 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Logician's love this passage for all the interplay of use and mention that = it involves. The added complication of the difference between what a thing= is called and what its name is is just thrown in for free (I think -- Dodg= son may have had another agenda there that I don't know about). I haven't = checked to see that the quotes are all in the right place (the usual logici= ans' worry), except to note that he Knight gets it wrong in the end, since = the song *is* "I'll tell you everything I can, .... A-sitting on a gate." o= r, at the very least, A-sitting On A Gate, but certainly not "A-sitting of = a gate." (which is, after all, only the/a name of the song) (but does Lojba= n still have title quotes?). On Monday, September 15, 2014 7:56 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: =20 On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 6:46 AM, selpa'i wrote: > Right. I think I first had {... go nai klaku gi co'e li'u}, but while tha= t maintains grammaticality it doesn't really correspond to being interrupte= d mid-speech (or just stopping etc). Just like you I don't know what the be= st general solution would be; I feel like there should be a way to have an = ungrammatical chunk inside grammatical text without making the entire text = parsefail. I don't know how one would parse human speech otherwise, which i= s going to be full of incomplete sentences.=20 Right, human speech is obviously not parsed as a single chunk. The Lojban p= arser is somewhat unnatural in that sense. =20 One thing that could help is to add a lot more productions to the fragment = rule of the grammar. Another solution I pondered involved giving EOF some m= agic powers so that it can make incomplete sentences parse up to the failur= e part and just treat the remainder as some sort of meaningless left-over. = What's important is that the grammatical part of such a sentence still gets= parsed properly. > It wouldn't be EOF though, because we still want to keep parsing what comes= after the incomplete sentence. The PEG can be modified so as to allow inco= mplete sentences, but it means adding a lot of rules.=20 I'm not sure about the equally likely case where the mistake happens in the= middle of a sentence. Perhaps an external statistical analyser would have = to guess what was meant and make corrections accordingly... > I would say mistakes are different from interruptions, so they probably req= uire different treatments. lo'u-le'u doesn't satisfy me, because 1) it requires you to know in advance= that a sentence or text will be ungrammatical (and it's an ugly give-away = in a written story), and 2) because text in error quotes does not get parse= d, so there is no way to extract meaning from what is said. Right. The second comment is about "ba'e" in: >> >>-.i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu >>- na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra ba'e cmene lo cmene >> >>Assuming the emphasis marks the rheme/comment as opposed to the >>theme/topic, I would expect the "ba'e" on the second cmene. The first >>cmene just repeats Alice's sentence, so it's not what the White Knight >>is correcting. I understand the sentence structure is somewhat different >>in Lojban than in the original, but the "ba'e" there just sounds off to m= e. >> >I know exactly what you mean. When I read the Lojban I had the same feelin= g, so I went over to the English and found that it was "backwards" as well.= {ba'e} on the second {cmene} definitely feels better, I just wasn't sure i= f I should make a "correction" to the original or if it fit the general wei= rdness in Alice. I don't think the original has the same problem, because in the English you= have "the name" and "is called", and the White Knight's "the name" does re= peat Alice's "the name", and "is called" is the new information. The proble= m with the Lojban is that there's two "cmene", and the one that is new info= rmation comes first and in the same position as Alice's "cmene". If it was = a different word, say: -.i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu - na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra ba'e sinxa lo cmene or: -.i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu - na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra lo cmene cu ba'e sinxa then it would be easier to follow, because it would be more clear that "lo = cmene" is "lo cmene be lo selsa'a". (I'm not saying it would be a better tr= anslation though.) Also the way you have "xu" questioning "lo selsa'a" may add to the garden-p= athing. I think "vau xu" would correspond more closely to the original.=20 mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---910415156-1787862531-1410795457=:2611 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Logician's love this passage for all the interplay= of use and mention that it involves.  The added complication of the diffe= rence between what a thing is called and what its name is is just thrown in= for free (I think -- Dodgson may have had another agenda there that I don'= t know about).  I haven't checked to see that the quotes are all in th= e right place (the usual logicians' worry), except to note that he Knight g= ets it wrong in the end, since the song *is* "I'll tell you everything I ca= n, .... A-sitting on a gate." or, at the very least, A-sitting On A Gate, b= ut certainly not "A-sitting of a gate." (which is, after all, only the/a na= me of the song) (but does Lojban still have title quotes?).


=
On Monday, September 15, 2014 7:56 AM, Jorge Lla= mb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:



On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 6:46 AM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de= > wrote:

 Right. I think I first had {... go nai klaku gi co'e li'u}, but while that = maintains grammaticality it doesn't really correspond to being interrupted = mid-speech (or just stopping etc). Just like you I don't know what the best= general solution would be; I feel like there should be a way to have an un= grammatical chunk inside grammatical text without making the entire text pa= rsefail. I don't know how one would parse human speech otherwise, which is = going to be full of incomplete sentences.

Right, human speech is obviously not parsed as a single chun= k. The Lojban parser is somewhat unnatural in that sense.
 <= /div>
One thing that could help is to add a l= ot more productions to the fragment rule of the grammar. Another solution I pondered involved giving EOF some magic powers so that it can make incom= plete sentences parse up to the failure part and just treat the remainder a= s some sort of meaningless left-over. What's important is that the grammati= cal part of such a sentence still gets parsed properly.
<= /blockquote>

It wouldn't be EOF though, b= ecause we still want to keep parsing what comes after the incomplete senten= ce. The PEG can be modified so as to allow incomplete sentences, but it mea= ns adding a lot of rules. 

I'm not sure about the equally likely case where the mistake happens in the= middle of a sentence. Perhaps an external statistical analyser would have = to guess what was meant and make corrections accordingly...

I would say mistakes are= different from interruptions, so they probably require different treatment= s.

lo'u-le'u doesn't satisfy me, because 1) it requires you to know in advance= that a sentence or text will be ungrammatical (and it's an ugly give-away = in a written story), and 2) because text in error quotes does not get parse= d, so there is no way to extract meaning from what is said.

Right.

<= blockquote class=3D"yiv0842685280gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0= .8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-s= tyle:solid;padding-left:1ex;">
The second comment is about "ba'e" in:

-.i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu
- na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra ba'e cmene lo cmene

Assuming the emphasis marks the rheme/comment as opposed to the
theme/topic, I would expect the "ba'e" on the second cmene. The first
cmene just repeats Alice's sentence, so it's not what the White Knight
is correcting. I understand the sentence structure is somewhat different in Lojban than in the original, but the "ba'e" there just sounds off to me.=

I know exactly what you mean. When I read the Lojban I had the same feeling= , so I went over to the English and found that it was "backwards" as well. = {ba'e} on the second {cmene} definitely feels better, I just wasn't sure if= I should make a "correction" to the original or if it fit the general weir= dness in Alice.

I don't thin= k the original has the same problem, because in the English you have "the n= ame" and "is called", and the White Knight's "the name" does repeat Alice's= "the name", and "is called" is the new information. The problem with the L= ojban is that there's two "cmene", and the one that is new information come= s first and in the same position as Alice's "cmene". If it was a different = word, say:

-.i ri cmene lo selsa'a = ku xu
- na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra ba'e sinxa lo cmene<= br clear=3D"none">

or:
-.i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu
= - na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra lo cmene cu ba'e sinxa

then it would be easier to follow, be= cause it would be more clear that "lo cmene" is "lo cmene be lo selsa'a". (= I'm not saying it would be a better translation though.)

Also the way you have "xu" questioning "lo selsa'a" m= ay add to the garden-pathing. I think "vau xu" would correspond more closel= y to the original. 

mu'o mi'e = xorxes

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