Received: from mail-ie0-f192.google.com ([209.85.223.192]:47288) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XTdDc-0001Bq-B9 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:49:52 -0700 Received: by mail-ie0-f192.google.com with SMTP id rd18sf956861iec.9 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:49:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ubRTQpv0QC9xRcMNvlCKFeVk7hqhakLmgUJYLxXtVTE=; b=fP3e5kTXzqpY6fjO7Z2sZ3q/IEUvyw4viMVrRAwN5BEB+CXgnm39WAlyY8qZ7m4A4x 9Hm2VkSK40/RRniqbclz9Ms/LTOYJ1mZ6VJS2ZWNpmY90wbi5lWlC2zasoYmYVLM8cn0 /uaJfVABgodXEbFPCAOybs4Sqw7DLuBapbFysteAVlkXpaV4RGc1pgGm37CJHNSsY6L4 g4l5HKtD0QTODrDj1dqinAFG0mybyyHvdulzYRn8KGSXczpTod0NpKr3ZpPUXhWYHakr +vRfgym9z488upHOIkMPfaOPQvMtg6wRn5on+JNRyNuEv7+puX8XrX/TXQ6sO1CO8jXB YDKQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ubRTQpv0QC9xRcMNvlCKFeVk7hqhakLmgUJYLxXtVTE=; b=nPlnNu/Y+3av7QbR+7Aktqaims/7S62rrbXDK59H5RqAJaCg9A+OR8gM8kwEMB7w2o sgLLfaUtI4iDJToAbkFoaZNUckC00ZOObSRVFOur00wvTj6AJWBj8IfNOsd2/Gzeu6nI kzkGFp5ForjEc5cdbOWJBxHtzzGUC0Kl+KjDN/sKv3zagSo9isfDc43mFK0wAc7Q2aLd uPbC6eD6fp/jNDvsBL3U7Q14n6OlvybwvKNNMWFMAXX3DxrXcJ/wEUzb2nqiOFLrFSzI GE0W0aPWjXs+9kMKrQc2tslbbQwI1PDh6XHNJa7W7D+cFSoaBjlyWMpuRHXupAzgt2Wr GPvA== X-Received: by 10.140.105.53 with SMTP id b50mr564569qgf.3.1410814185022; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:49:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.29.194 with SMTP id b60ls1745583qgb.3.gmail; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:49:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.140.108.74 with SMTP id i68mr489155qgf.1.1410814184656; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 13:49:42 -0700 (PDT) From: TR NS To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <541714B1.9080300@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Logos Initiative MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: transfire@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1_1517774743.1410814182655" X-Spam-Note: SpamAssassin invocation failed ------=_Part_1_1517774743.1410814182655 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Monday, September 15, 2014 2:44:35 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: > > > > 2014-09-15 22:22 GMT+04:00 TR NS >: > >> >> > It is not going to stay in this state because there are people that are > working on it. > Robin is working on a new CLL, I'm working on a new dictionary, a new > tutorial and on Lojban Expertise Test. > > I think that just helps make my point. The more you "complete" the current language the more resistant to change it becomes. Who's going going to look fondly on changes to a language on which they've dedicated many man hours to pass the "Expertise Test"? > If this is the only reason you want a new language I can only suggest that > you join existing projects in Lojban. > > I feel you have missed the whole second half of "something in between". > Loglan is mostly broken. E.g. it doesnt have mekso. > As for the dictionary most of its lujvo are in fact cimjvo. You can take > Core wordnet and translate it instead. > > Maybe I should not use the word "synthesis" I don't meant to take the two languages and pour them into one bowl and **poof** new language. > There is no way Loglan can be united with Lojban because there is almost > nothing to take from Loglan that would pose any interest from Lojbanic > point of view. > > I don't see how you can say that when the whole language is a "take" on Loglan. > And can it actually ever be complete? And doesn't the whole notion of >> "completion" work against the notion of change? >> > > It doesn't. Describing a language in more details doesnt necessarily > invalidate old usage. > > But as for xorlo I dont like it not because of grammatical or semantical > reasons but because of paedagogical reasons when a change wasn't confirmed > in fundamental documents. > > Other than that I can't see any problems in Lojban except that many people > seem to be lazy. We'll have to deal with that. > > That's an interesting thing to say. Do you think the problems I see with it are because I am just lazy? And how do you propose to deal with that? > There've been other attempts to create forks of loglangs like reviving > guaspi community or xorban. > There've been voksigid and lojsk. > All these projects died. > > I think mostly due to the same reasons: the lack of tutorials, a reference > grammar as complete as CLL and a rich dictionary. > And of course compared to Lojban they provided no immediate advantages. > And no corpus of texts. > The same could be said of Lojban when it was started. > >> Documenting the completions that xorxes and selpa'i would recommend is a >> good idea, but it's clear to me it would not change much here. >> > > How's that? This *is *the goal of this community. > In so far as their proposals are adoptable, they cannot change much. Logla is a means to take on larger potential changes. Things like simplified connectives (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/lojban/proposal/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg/A5IdZQ9Y5OEJ), a simplified rafsi system, even re-consideration of the morphology. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1_1517774743.1410814182655 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bord= er-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
If this is the only reason you want a new= language I can only suggest that you join existing projects in Lojban.


I feel = you have missed the whole second half of "something in between".
=  
<= div>
Loglan is mostly broken. E.g= . it doesnt have mekso.
As for the dictionary most of its lujvo a= re in fact cimjvo. You can take Core wordnet and translate it instead.


Maybe I = should not use the word "synthesis" I don't meant to take the two languages= and pour them into one bowl and **poof** new language. 
&nb= sp;
There is no way Loglan can be u= nited with Lojban because there is almost nothing to take from Loglan that = would pose any interest from Lojbanic point of view.


I don't see how you can sa= y that when the whole language is a "take" on Loglan.
 
<= /div>
And can it actually ever be complete? And doesn't the whole = notion of "completion" work against the notion of change? 
=

It doesn't. Describing a language in more = details doesnt necessarily invalidate old usage. 

=
But as for xorlo I dont like it not because of grammatical or semantic= al reasons but because of paedagogical reasons when a change wasn't confirm= ed in fundamental documents.

Other than that I can= 't see any problems in Lojban except that many people seem to be lazy. We'l= l have to deal with that.


That's an interesting thing to say. Do you think the = problems I see with it are because I am just lazy? And how do you propose t= o deal with that? 
 
There've been other attempts to create forks of loglangs like revivin= g guaspi community or xorban.
There've been voksigid and lojsk.
All these projects died. 

I think mo= stly due to the same reasons: the lack of tutorials, a reference grammar as= complete as CLL and a rich dictionary.
And of course compared to= Lojban they provided no immediate advantages. And no corpus of texts.

The same could be said = of Lojban when it was started. 



<= /div>
Documenting the completions that xorxes and selpa'i would recomme= nd is a good idea, but it's clear to me it would not change much here.

How's that? This is the goal= of this community.

In so far as their proposals are adoptable, they cannot change much. =

Logla is a means to take on larger potential chan= ges. Things like simplified connectives (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!= searchin/lojban/proposal/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg/A5IdZQ9Y5OEJ), a simplified raf= si system, even re-consideration of the morphology.

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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