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Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 15:45:15 -0600
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj0Zd2bYcYPv08n2LRHFN74AL_BkMHee5ZPaw=1AS9P8Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Logos Initiative
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:49 PM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Logla is a means to take on larger potential changes. Things like
> simplified connectives (
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/lojban/proposal/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg/A5IdZQ9Y5OEJ),
> a simplified rafsi system, even re-consideration of the morphology.
>

Speaking specifically of the connectives, I myself look forward to the day
when that proposal arrives on the voting block so I can cast my approval.
Large changes to Lojban are not impossible. If it's a good idea, then I'm
fairly certain the BPFK would vote it in- not unanimously, I'm sure, we
don't all agree on everything. Not counting the freeze in place until the
baseline is completed, the only thing that would prevent a change- great or
small- to Lojban, is whether or not such a change was verifyably better
than the thing before the change. And, in fact, even the freeze doesn't
prevent change entirely, as xorlo happened even with the freeze, which
seems to me to say that xorlo's changes are so obviously better than the
previous state that waiting for the baseline was just not worth it.

Admittedly, I don't think it very likely that a change proposal for the
morphology would be very likely, but again, that really depends on the
change itself. I mean, everyone knows the mekso portion of it is completely
borked right now, so if someone managed to come up with a mekso that
wasn't, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it voted in.

But even so, there are a lot of things I've seen proposed during my time
here that I would expect would likely get passed were they ever formally
put to the BPFK. Off the top of my head, changing the meaning of sa (it
currently means "erase previous up to point of following word's class" as
in {mi nelci lonu plise sa lo plise}, but in my admittedly limited
experience people tend to use it as "replace that typo with this word" as
in {mi klama fo lo karce sa fu}), making kibro, lo'ai, sa'ai, le'ai
official, and probably a bunch of other stuff I can't think of off the top
of my head.

I can't say whether or not a fork would be needed for what you desire,
since I don't know what you desire beyond cutting through the red tape, but
I don't agree that a fork is needed to cut through the tape-- it's one
ribbon. Granted, it's a big ribbon that's still being cut after decades of
on again, off again work by a vast number of people done a bit at a time
until each person maxed out their burnout:caring ratio (I did a few
sections before I hit that, actually), but it's not a hard task, just one
being done with "dull" scissors. (Because the work is tedious. Ha! A pun!)

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:49 PM, TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
transfire@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v>Logla is a means to take on larger potential changes. Things like simplif=
ied connectives (<a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/lojb=
an/proposal/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg/A5IdZQ9Y5OEJ" target=3D"_blank">https://grou=
ps.google.com/forum/#!searchin/lojban/proposal/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg/A5IdZQ9Y5=
OEJ</a>), a simplified rafsi system, even re-consideration of the morpholog=
y.</div></div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra">Speaking specifically of the connectives, I myself look forward to=
 the day when that proposal arrives on the voting block so I can cast my ap=
proval. Large changes to Lojban are not impossible. If it&#39;s a good idea=
, then I&#39;m fairly certain the BPFK would vote it in- not unanimously, I=
&#39;m sure, we don&#39;t all agree on everything. Not counting the freeze =
in place until the baseline is completed, the only thing that would prevent=
 a change- great or small- to Lojban, is whether or not such a change was v=
erifyably better than the thing before the change. And, in fact, even the f=
reeze doesn&#39;t prevent change entirely, as xorlo happened even with the =
freeze, which seems to me to say that xorlo&#39;s changes are so obviously =
better than the previous state that waiting for the baseline was just not w=
orth it.<br><br>Admittedly, I don&#39;t think it very likely that a change =
proposal for the morphology would be very likely, but again, that really de=
pends on the change itself. I mean, everyone knows the mekso portion of it =
is completely borked right now, so if someone managed to come up with a mek=
so that wasn&#39;t, I wouldn&#39;t be at all surprised to see it voted in.<=
br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">But even so, there are a lot of thi=
ngs I&#39;ve seen proposed during my time here that I would expect would li=
kely get passed were they ever formally put to the BPFK. Off the top of my =
head, changing the meaning of sa (it currently means &quot;erase previous u=
p to point of following word&#39;s class&quot; as in {mi nelci lonu plise s=
a lo plise}, but in my admittedly limited experience people tend to use it =
as &quot;replace that typo with this word&quot; as in {mi klama fo lo karce=
 sa fu}), making kibro, lo&#39;ai, sa&#39;ai, le&#39;ai official, and proba=
bly a bunch of other stuff I can&#39;t think of off the top of my head.<br>=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">I can&#39;t say whether or not a fork =
would be needed for what you desire, since I don&#39;t know what you desire=
 beyond cutting through the red tape, but I don&#39;t agree that a fork is =
needed to cut through the tape-- it&#39;s one ribbon. Granted, it&#39;s a b=
ig ribbon that&#39;s still being cut after decades of on again, off again w=
ork by a vast number of people done a bit at a time until each person maxed=
 out their burnout:caring ratio (I did a few sections before I hit that, ac=
tually), but it&#39;s not a hard task, just one being done with &quot;dull&=
quot; scissors. (Because the work is tedious. Ha! A pun!)<br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;uc=
ai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come =
to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>
</div></div>

<p></p>

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