Received: from mail-la0-f61.google.com ([209.85.215.61]:37739) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XTle0-0004eq-13 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:49:41 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f61.google.com with SMTP id s18sf429330lam.6 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:49:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=DbsOMcddbrVKngIl4Pp/hUvERUT8ro0hbJnijM5kAco=; b=yTm9aAfysQX6XUoTIio/O3xFZD5gLaC3vfhSO5wE+wrStp+5TPNwrSaXPDK+sl6tPA br87Wb1IbOH9PtKYtW7D5EhLBEGMUo/7E6IdZAbsubuLGwvFiBy9dmgVuk2G8iXi/ILB mJM114i796sfJazm9XqIh+PW18ExhjO0mvg/H6nj/JjDXKQ79hHiOaVnPoP/fxKEbzuc f5O2eTPYb35jQm1SdmU6G26cOeEEaWpyApp0uV4s9VkF5IQjsoFKWtQT4SxYb3IU/CKk AOL7jKvRBM2TDB2bk1qo4fZ6Yjpj1WCXh7Ub3KaSaKYTUGBf30ROScWU6gmqgZ0Toa+s t2xA== X-Received: by 10.180.8.230 with SMTP id u6mr6977wia.1.1410846572489; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:49:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.106.74 with SMTP id gs10ls546806wib.38.gmail; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.121.72 with SMTP id li8mr7893044wjb.1.1410846571859; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x234.google.com (mail-wg0-x234.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ht8si36587wib.1.2014.09.15.22.49.31 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::234; Received: by mail-wg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id x13so4968776wgg.35 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:49:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.94.161 with SMTP id dd1mr29850247wib.22.1410846571736; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.89.193 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:49:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <541714B1.9080300@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 09:49:31 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Logos Initiative From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04462e9ebdb2fa0503285020 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d04462e9ebdb2fa0503285020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2014-09-16 0:49 GMT+04:00 TR NS : > > > On Monday, September 15, 2014 2:44:35 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: >> >> >> >> 2014-09-15 22:22 GMT+04:00 TR NS : >> >>> >>> >> It is not going to stay in this state because there are people that are >> working on it. >> Robin is working on a new CLL, I'm working on a new dictionary, a new >> tutorial and on Lojban Expertise Test. >> >> > I think that just helps make my point. The more you "complete" the current > language the more resistant to change it becomes. > Completing doesn't mean changing. You just add more details that previously didnt pay attention at. > Who's going going to look fondly on changes to a language on which they've > dedicated many man hours to pass the "Expertise Test"? > I dont understand which changes you are talking about. I can't even see what is proposed. While monitoring IRC i wrote out all additions and explanations i found important or intetersting. Adding them to a new CLL won't pose any problem for me once there is a simple syntax. I've been working on a CLL in the wiki but since robin is also working on CLL i changed to other important tasks. > > >> If this is the only reason you want a new language I can only suggest >> that you join existing projects in Lojban. >> >> > I feel you have missed the whole second half of "something in between". > > >> Loglan is mostly broken. E.g. it doesnt have mekso. >> As for the dictionary most of its lujvo are in fact cimjvo. You can take >> Core wordnet and translate it instead. >> >> > Maybe I should not use the word "synthesis" I don't meant to take the two > languages and pour them into one bowl and **poof** new language. > > >> There is no way Loglan can be united with Lojban because there is almost >> nothing to take from Loglan that would pose any interest from Lojbanic >> point of view. >> >> > I don't see how you can say that when the whole language is a "take" on > Loglan. > Now Lojban is much more complete and freed of most of drawbacks of Loglan. I dont see how a child can be crossed with its father. I've seen only a couple of fu'ivla worth taking from Loglan. What words exactly you have in mind worth borrowing from Loglan apart from cimjvo? Or if it's a cimjvo why borrowing it from Loglan? > > >> And can it actually ever be complete? And doesn't the whole notion of >>> "completion" work against the notion of change? >>> >> >> It doesn't. Describing a language in more details doesnt necessarily >> invalidate old usage. >> >> But as for xorlo I dont like it not because of grammatical or semantical >> reasons but because of paedagogical reasons when a change wasn't confirmed >> in fundamental documents. >> >> Other than that I can't see any problems in Lojban except that many >> people seem to be lazy. We'll have to deal with that. >> >> > That's an interesting thing to say. Do you think the problems I see with > it are because I am just lazy? And how do you propose to deal with that? > I think you just read a thread where people were screaming but not doing any actual work and drew pessimistic conclusions. Luckily, not all of us are like that. Take Lojbab. He made a huge amount of work to not let Loglan/Lojban project die. This doesn't mean people must spend their whole life on that (and this project is almost a hobbie for most of us). > > >> There've been other attempts to create forks of loglangs like reviving >> guaspi community or xorban. >> There've been voksigid and lojsk. >> All these projects died. >> >> I think mostly due to the same reasons: the lack of tutorials, a >> reference grammar as complete as CLL and a rich dictionary. >> And of course compared to Lojban they provided no immediate advantages. >> And no corpus of texts. >> > > The same could be said of Lojban when it was started. > Lojban never died. > > >> >>> Documenting the completions that xorxes and selpa'i would recommend is a >>> good idea, but it's clear to me it would not change much here. >>> >> >> How's that? This *is *the goal of this community. >> > > In so far as their proposals are adoptable, they cannot change much. > > Logla is a means to take on larger potential changes. Things like > simplified connectives ( > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/lojban/proposal/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg/A5IdZQ9Y5OEJ), > a simplified rafsi system, even re-consideration of the morphology. > di'ai > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d04462e9ebdb2fa0503285020 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2014-09-16 0:49 GMT+04:00 TR NS <transfire@gmail.com>:=


On Monday, Sept= ember 15, 2014 2:44:35 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:


2014-= 09-15 22:22 GMT+04:00 TR NS <tran...@gmail.com&= gt;:


It is not going to stay in = this state because there are people =C2=A0that are working on it.
Robin is working on a new CLL, I'm working on a new dictionary, a new = tutorial and on Lojban Expertise Test.


I think that just helps make my p= oint. The more you "complete" the current language the more resis= tant to change it becomes.

Comp= leting doesn't mean changing.
You just add more details that = previously didnt pay attention at.

=C2=A0
Who's going going to= look fondly on changes to a language on which they've dedicated many m= an hours to pass the "Expertise Test"?

I dont understand which changes you are talking about.
I can't even see what is proposed. While monitoring IRC i wrote= out all additions and explanations i found important or intetersting.
Adding them to a new CLL won't pose any problem for me once there= is a simple syntax. I've been working on a CLL in the wiki but since r= obin is also working on CLL i changed to other important tasks.
= =C2=A0
=C2=A0
If this is the only re= ason you want a new language I can only suggest that you join existing proj= ects in Lojban.

I feel you have missed the whole second half of "so= mething in between".
=C2=A0
Loglan is mostly broken. E.g. it doesnt have mekso.
As for the dictionary most of its lujvo are in fact cimjvo. You can = take Core wordnet and translate it instead.


Maybe I should not use the w= ord "synthesis" I don't meant to take the two languages and p= our them into one bowl and **poof** new language.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
There is no way Loglan ca= n be united with Lojban because there is almost nothing to take from Loglan= that would pose any interest from Lojbanic point of view.


I don't s= ee how you can say that when the whole language is a "take" on Lo= glan.
Now Lojban is much more complete and fre= ed of most of drawbacks of Loglan.
I dont see how a child can be = crossed with its father.
I've seen only a couple of fu'iv= la worth taking from Loglan.
What words exactly you have in mind = worth borrowing from Loglan apart from cimjvo?
Or if it's a c= imjvo why borrowing it from Loglan?=C2=A0
=C2=A0
And can it ac= tually ever be complete? And doesn't the whole notion of "completi= on" work against the notion of change?=C2=A0
<= div>
It doesn't. Describing a language in more details do= esnt necessarily invalidate old usage.=C2=A0

But a= s for xorlo I dont like it not because of grammatical or semantical reasons= but because of paedagogical reasons when a change wasn't confirmed in = fundamental documents.

Other than that I can't= see any problems in Lojban except that many people seem to be lazy. We'= ;ll have to deal with that.


That's an interesting thing to say. Do y= ou think the problems I see with it are because I am just lazy? And how do = you propose to deal with that?=C2=A0

I think you just read a thread where people were screaming but not do= ing any actual work and drew pessimistic conclusions.

<= div>Luckily, not all of us are like that.
Take Lojbab. He made a = huge amount of work to not let Loglan/Lojban project die.
This do= esn't mean people must spend their whole life on that (and this project= is almost a hobbie for most of us).
=C2=A0
<= div>There've been other attempts to create forks of loglangs like reviv= ing guaspi community or xorban.
There've been voksigid and lo= jsk.
All these projects died.=C2=A0

I th= ink mostly due to the same reasons: the lack of tutorials, a reference gram= mar as complete as CLL and a rich dictionary.
And of course compa= red to Lojban they provided no immediate advantages. And no corpus of texts= .

The same c= ould be said of Lojban when it was started.=C2=A0
<= div>
Lojban never died.
=C2=A0


Documenting the completions that xorxes and selpa'i would r= ecommend is a good idea, but it's clear to me it would not change much = here.

How's that? This i= s the goal of this community.
=
In so far as their proposals are adoptable, they cann= ot change much.=C2=A0

Logla is a means to take on = larger potential changes. Things like simplified connectives (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin= /lojban/proposal/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg/A5IdZQ9Y5OEJ), a simplified rafsi s= ystem, even re-consideration of the morphology.

di'ai=C2=A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--f46d04462e9ebdb2fa0503285020--