Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::236;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAMKwHj0Zd2bYcYPv08n2LRHFN74AL_BkMHee5ZPaw=1AS9P8Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e0b23cf5-5a67-4a9b-8db0-7d310eb4116e@googlegroups.com>
	<541714B1.9080300@gmail.com>
	<b7dbd33d-3ebd-48eb-b45e-6e90d4f59491@googlegroups.com>
	<CAO7bV+hBU3TyXr56V_q1C2mQAybuMfo3_00U_DVb16m=VeoH4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<b83f94eb-1ae9-4959-ba42-c056d2066383@googlegroups.com>
	<CAMKwHj0Zd2bYcYPv08n2LRHFN74AL_BkMHee5ZPaw=1AS9P8Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 09:52:18 +0400
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+gHSoXRPMGVa9v6csrxaD8c+-UJYyJX5HqCjH3=g0JP2g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Logos Initiative
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0102f0b2ac1c450503285a64
X-Spam_score: -1.9
X-Spam_score_int: -18
X-Spam_bar: -

--089e0102f0b2ac1c450503285a64
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

2014-09-16 1:45 GMT+04:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:

> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:49 PM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Logla is a means to take on larger potential changes. Things like
>> simplified connectives (
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/lojban/proposal/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg/A5IdZQ9Y5OEJ),
>> a simplified rafsi system, even re-consideration of the morphology.
>>
>
> Speaking specifically of the connectives, I myself look forward to the day
> when that proposal arrives on the voting block so I can cast my approval.
>

Simplified connectives (gija, jacu, vauja)  is not a reform provided the
old connective system continues to be valid.
Thus this is a backward compatible change which. it would be more correct
to call it "addition".

This cannot be said of xorlo, of course.

Large changes to Lojban are not impossible. If it's a good idea, then I'm
> fairly certain the BPFK would vote it in- not unanimously, I'm sure, we
> don't all agree on everything. Not counting the freeze in place until the
> baseline is completed, the only thing that would prevent a change- great or
> small- to Lojban, is whether or not such a change was verifyably better
> than the thing before the change. And, in fact, even the freeze doesn't
> prevent change entirely, as xorlo happened even with the freeze, which
> seems to me to say that xorlo's changes are so obviously better than the
> previous state that waiting for the baseline was just not worth it.
>
> Admittedly, I don't think it very likely that a change proposal for the
> morphology would be very likely, but again, that really depends on the
> change itself. I mean, everyone knows the mekso portion of it is completely
> borked right now, so if someone managed to come up with a mekso that
> wasn't, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it voted in.
>
> But even so, there are a lot of things I've seen proposed during my time
> here that I would expect would likely get passed were they ever formally
> put to the BPFK. Off the top of my head, changing the meaning of sa (it
> currently means "erase previous up to point of following word's class" as
> in {mi nelci lonu plise sa lo plise}, but in my admittedly limited
> experience people tend to use it as "replace that typo with this word" as
> in {mi klama fo lo karce sa fu}), making kibro, lo'ai, sa'ai, le'ai official
>

Again additions, not core-changing proposals.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--089e0102f0b2ac1c450503285a64
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2014-09-16 1:45 GMT+04:00 Jonathan Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</=
span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"">=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 =
at 2:49 PM, TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:transfire@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Logla is a mean=
s to take on larger potential changes. Things like simplified connectives (=
<a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/lojban/proposal/lojba=
n/ExtEumbYoQg/A5IdZQ9Y5OEJ" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/for=
um/#!searchin/lojban/proposal/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg/A5IdZQ9Y5OEJ</a>), a simpl=
ified rafsi system, even re-consideration of the morphology.</div></div></b=
lockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"></div></span><div class=3D"gmail_extra">S=
peaking specifically of the connectives, I myself look forward to the day w=
hen that proposal arrives on the voting block so I can cast my approval. </=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Simplified connectives (gija, ja=
cu, vauja) =C2=A0is not a reform provided the old connective system continu=
es to be valid.</div><div>Thus this is a backward compatible change which. =
it would be more correct to call it &quot;addition&quot;.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>This cannot be said of xorlo, of course.</div><div><br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Large =
changes to Lojban are not impossible. If it&#39;s a good idea, then I&#39;m=
 fairly certain the BPFK would vote it in- not unanimously, I&#39;m sure, w=
e don&#39;t all agree on everything. Not counting the freeze in place until=
 the baseline is completed, the only thing that would prevent a change- gre=
at or small- to Lojban, is whether or not such a change was verifyably bett=
er than the thing before the change. And, in fact, even the freeze doesn=
9;t prevent change entirely, as xorlo happened even with the freeze, which =
seems to me to say that xorlo&#39;s changes are so obviously better than th=
e previous state that waiting for the baseline was just not worth it.<br><b=
r>Admittedly, I don&#39;t think it very likely that a change proposal for t=
he morphology would be very likely, but again, that really depends on the c=
hange itself. I mean, everyone knows the mekso portion of it is completely =
borked right now, so if someone managed to come up with a mekso that wasn&#=
39;t, I wouldn&#39;t be at all surprised to see it voted in.<br><br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra">But even so, there are a lot of things I&#39;ve s=
een proposed during my time here that I would expect would likely get passe=
d were they ever formally put to the BPFK. Off the top of my head, changing=
 the meaning of sa (it currently means &quot;erase previous up to point of =
following word&#39;s class&quot; as in {mi nelci lonu plise sa lo plise}, b=
ut in my admittedly limited experience people tend to use it as &quot;repla=
ce that typo with this word&quot; as in {mi klama fo lo karce sa fu}), maki=
ng kibro, lo&#39;ai, sa&#39;ai, le&#39;ai official</div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>Again additions, not core-changing proposals.</div><div=
><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--089e0102f0b2ac1c450503285a64--