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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:59:22 +0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to
jbovlaste or at least here?

2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:

>
>
>     A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit
> BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors.  Now,
> according to CLL 7.5.8:
>
>>          The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series
>> pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are
>> taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning with
>> the same letter
>
>
>    And similarly in 17.9.2:
>
>>   If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a single
>> lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti whose name
>> or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu
>
>     That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to time
> about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti.  Some suggest counting
> the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest using the
> first letter of the internal bridi.  This poses two problems.  First,
> consider the following:
>
>  la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny
>
>   Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming?  It depends on which
> one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has
> the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for
> events and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain
> vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).)
>
>   The second problem is what do you do with an example like this:
>
>    la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna        ?
>
>   The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction sumti
> with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare.  But what would the second
> camp call it?  They can't use ny, that's Norman to them.  They can't use
> "ry", that's Rover himself.  "ly"?  Maybe, but it seems a stretch.  They
> would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se
> go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/
>
>
>   Proposed solution:
>
>   New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer,
> and can refer ONLY  to the abstraction.  "But if they are a letter/symbol,
> what do they look like?" you ask.   That's the beauty of lojban.  It
> doesn't matter,  Because we are talking here only about using them as
> evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do.
>
>   This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would
> make discourse clearer and cleaner.
>
>      What do people think?
>
>                    --gejyspa
>
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, n=
ubu, du&#39;ubu to jbovlaste or at least here?</div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turni=
ansky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A subject t=
hat comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit BY prosumti, espe=
cially when they interact with abstractors. =C2=A0Now, according to CLL 7.5=
.8:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-styl=
e:solid;padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0The main d=
ifference between letter pro-sumti and ko&#39;a-series pro-sumti is that, i=
n the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are taken to refer to the =
most recent name or description sumti beginning with the same letter</block=
quote><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0And similarly in 17.9.2:</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid=
;padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0 If no assignment    can be found for a lerfu stri=
ng (especially a single lerfu    word), it can be assumed to refer to the m=
ost recent sumti    whose name or description begins in Lojban with that le=
rfu</blockquote><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That&#39;s all very well and good, but q=
uestions come up from time to time about what letter to use for an abstract=
ion sumti. =C2=A0Some suggest counting the NU that marks the start of the s=
tructure, others suggest using the first letter of the internal bridi. =C2=
=A0This poses two problems. =C2=A0First, consider the following:</div><div>=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny</div><=
div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming=
? =C2=A0It depends on which one of the above approaches the author uses (th=
e first approach also has the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity o=
f &quot;ny&quot; and &quot;ky&quot; used for events and properties, and the=
ir concomitant unavailability for plain vanilla sumti (at least for implici=
t assignment).)</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 The second problem is what =
do you do with an example like this:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 The first camp would have no problem t=
alking about the abstraction sumti with an implicit BY &quot;It&#39;s ny,&q=
uot; they declare. =C2=A0But what would the second camp call it? =C2=A0They=
 can&#39;t use ny, that&#39;s Norman to them. =C2=A0They can&#39;t use &quo=
t;ry&quot;, that&#39;s Rover himself. =C2=A0&quot;ly&quot;? =C2=A0Maybe, bu=
t it seems a stretch. =C2=A0They would pretty much be forced to use explici=
t goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go&#39;i/go&#39;e/go&#39;a, or the like/</di=
v><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 Proposed solution:</div><div><b=
r></div><div>=C2=A0 New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu famil=
y) that refer, and can refer ONLY =C2=A0to the abstraction. =C2=A0&quot;But=
 if they are a letter/symbol, what do they look like?&quot; you ask. =C2=A0=
 That&#39;s the beauty of lojban. =C2=A0It doesn&#39;t matter, =C2=A0Becaus=
e we are talking here only about using them as evaluatable symbols, to refe=
r to sumti, which any lerfu can do.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 This br=
eaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would make discour=
se clearer and cleaner. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0What do people think?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa</div><span class=3D"=
HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div></font></span></div><span cl=
ass=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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