Received: from mail-ig0-f192.google.com ([209.85.213.192]:41184) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XUFLi-0004fu-3D for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:32:47 -0700 Received: by mail-ig0-f192.google.com with SMTP id a13sf21692igq.9 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:32:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=qzhiLMCchQmRYzM8i0K2WhJUkYL23Esfn96s8Xiez1Y=; b=bfDo5Ds7DixPyPUIjL911JySkT2zgt4cp70kb0TJZh5WA9vpm32OT2p/1AbBmrAa9g x6TVxt7ZoeVDXvW5q5/sQCVsQUoY+B6nCWbScze4JeiwmTShg9W3R1aIDRA5ubcNfbDq gFNRLWe4Ek32RyLAu1Xnhk4Spd8JUGSdhdlIFHuu+uNFC4zVtl9MSwHi1Gv49lY0rlf5 3VPnoJanNkBvVeV7+C2qdlTLwqpoRNCeDLy7Y2t6pcVyNy13ZvIVg2Gbt1AMjfAUA80r jJVG55dIJJbzdPKVlUE0ReLmotFVKj5GFolz4Xd0qvkrJThllv+uoSKSfBj4mvqPMyEL 9UpQ== X-Received: by 10.50.18.17 with SMTP id s17mr112690igd.10.1410960759792; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:32:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.61.36 with SMTP id m4ls867962igr.30.gmail; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:32:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.150.197 with SMTP id uk5mr12601992pab.41.1410960759226; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x22d.google.com (mail-qa0-x22d.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id im3si794202qcb.1.2014.09.17.06.32.39 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22d; Received: by mail-qa0-f45.google.com with SMTP id s7so1735160qap.32 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:32:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.73.132 with SMTP id q4mr56921864qaj.78.1410960759059; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.201.74 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:32:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:32:38 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3e142d6003f050342e6f8 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c3e142d6003f050342e6f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do we really need to? I mean, vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbovlaste, and those are all in the CLL. I am not adding any new functionality to the language. nubu: BY* letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1=8F=84 (unicode 13c4)), used as an impl= icit prosumti for most recent sumti starting with the word nu kabu: BY* letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an impli= cit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka du'ubu: BY* letteral ( proposed orthography=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an implic= it prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word du'u --gejyspa On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to > jbovlaste or at least here? > > 2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky : > >> >> >> A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit >> BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors. Now, >> according to CLL 7.5.8: >> >>> The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series >>> pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters ar= e >>> taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning w= ith >>> the same letter >> >> >> And similarly in 17.9.2: >> >>> If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a single >>> lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti whose = name >>> or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu >> >> That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to >> time about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti. Some suggest >> counting the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest us= ing >> the first letter of the internal bridi. This poses two problems. First= , >> consider the following: >> >> la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny >> >> Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming? It depends on whic= h >> one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has >> the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used fo= r >> events and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain >> vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).) >> >> The second problem is what do you do with an example like this: >> >> la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna ? >> >> The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction >> sumti with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare. But what would the >> second camp call it? They can't use ny, that's Norman to them. They ca= n't >> use "ry", that's Rover himself. "ly"? Maybe, but it seems a stretch. >> They would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/= ru, >> se go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/ >> >> >> Proposed solution: >> >> New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, >> and can refer ONLY to the abstraction. "But if they are a letter/symbo= l, >> what do they look like?" you ask. That's the beauty of lojban. It >> doesn't matter, Because we are talking here only about using them as >> evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do. >> >> This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would >> make discourse clearer and cleaner. >> >> What do people think? >> >> --gejyspa >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c3e142d6003f050342e6f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Do we really need to? =C2=A0I mean, =C2=A0vy bu, ky= bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbovlaste, and those are all in the CLL. = =C2=A0 I am not adding any new functionality to the language.

nubu: BY*
letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1=8F=84 (unico= de 13c4)), used as an implicit prosumti for most recent sumti starting with= the word nu

kabu: BY*
letteral ( propos= ed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an implicit prosumti for = must recent sumti starting with the word ka

du'= ;ubu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthography=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)= ), used as an implicit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the wor= d du'u

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


=C2=A0 =C2=A0

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM= , Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote= :
Michael, will you plea= se write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to jbovlaste or at leas= t here?

2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansk= y@gmail.com>:
<= div class=3D"h5">


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A s= ubject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit BY prosum= ti, especially when they interact with abstractors. =C2=A0Now, according to= CLL 7.5.8:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0Th= e main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series pro-sumti is= that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are taken to refer= to the most recent name or description sumti beginning with the same lette= r
=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0And similarly in 17.= 9.2:
=C2=A0 If no assignment can be found for a le= rfu string (especially a single lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer = to the most recent sumti whose name or description begins in Lojban with= that lerfu
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That's all very well and goo= d, but questions come up from time to time about what letter to use for an = abstraction sumti. =C2=A0Some suggest counting the NU that marks the start = of the structure, others suggest using the first letter of the internal bri= di. =C2=A0This poses two problems. =C2=A0First, consider the following:

=C2=A0la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny=

=C2=A0 Does Doris like Norman, or does she like s= wimming? =C2=A0It depends on which one of the above approaches the author u= ses (the first approach also has the unenviable problem of having a multipl= icity of "ny" and "ky" used for events and properties, = and their concomitant unavailability for plain vanilla sumti (at least for = implicit assignment).)

=C2=A0 The second problem i= s what do you do with an example like this:

=C2=A0= =C2=A0la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0?

=C2=A0 The first camp would have no pr= oblem talking about the abstraction sumti with an implicit BY "It'= s ny," they declare. =C2=A0But what would the second camp call it? =C2= =A0They can't use ny, that's Norman to them. =C2=A0They can't u= se "ry", that's Rover himself. =C2=A0"ly"? =C2=A0Ma= ybe, but it seems a stretch. =C2=A0They would pretty much be forced to use = explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go'i/go'e/go'a, or the li= ke/


=C2=A0 Proposed solution:
=

=C2=A0 New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUb= u family) that refer, and can refer ONLY =C2=A0to the abstraction. =C2=A0&q= uot;But if they are a letter/symbol, what do they look like?" you ask.= =C2=A0 That's the beauty of lojban. =C2=A0It doesn't matter, =C2= =A0Because we are talking here only about using them as evaluatable symbols= , to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do.

=C2= =A0 This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would m= ake discourse clearer and cleaner. =C2=A0

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0What do people think?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11c3e142d6003f050342e6f8--