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[216.109.115.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id im3si862819qcb.1.2014.09.17.08.03.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.118; Received: from [66.196.81.157] by nm20.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2014 15:03:52 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.138] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2014 15:03:52 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1014.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2014 15:03:52 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 373917.35695.bm@omp1014.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 17858 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Sep 2014 15:03:51 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: MZfuQWUVM1n_MgemU414oGHvjVD5hGwbpZFaFId8tecWgHQ gADHXa9xDRA_T_pvPhMqLs4gbvkzq2tZ.WZc.949QlkSnkVQy3dWEQ_v.KZg FSJYclulKY2c24H444KVSrRIi.RfsfSWH8eeWbg0c6VShRiVFI2nbmhDSADu wYwnr2zVLSPWp0Zw6nJynHH9mGrrHfRe3j5OBy2zrTQW.LVNlxw7kpDRHyIt PjUDDiwa24K.hslI7eBDIyugKyq6Zj7m9y7hHDUEyDU7wknW79eHngv9N13c aE3Vig_aNzuPUriJxUz3PnpwzJtbNgHvxt0eU.cYMoSzWI09BdxFf3mxrGDe MppFyXbOutGbRUzM3bBqbdDAqgLbbztHhPOzjkqtnX6zNO3JKdZF8aCw85rK u.zxo7rS0i78l217IDu.ijV2oI2pZW4BxPJTetco3bRHO6Og7_7WuQfwFLr_ GmnUxxifqj2qQSVofLjsYQT9pvWXWW2Pcqbj87q1Hgxi637goX8KkHqIwjq0 AAwTrpmpFjNLv716BWLiZWAUA9MTbSYU_BXLrFJD67mWfTIDrwExdQnYRf9X N4CDjK.SlLFrVdD88_BJhcd8MjSO2CNgPCdcZw8ky2xHblbPvoyVSJ3HUbDu 6Z0ZST8S0By7NybGPn_AYm1q.wxh2QVLUuTNfDmHU8clQL0.h1FAU74e8Tj_ y.jdaGMEJ_MCgOB4mj6gkX8TdPD0ke81ZwTBqeo85DlQ- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:03:51 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,Q3V0ZSAoZXNwZWNpYWxseSB0aGUgcHJvcG9zZWQgb3J0aG9ncmFwaGllcykuICBBcmUgdGhlc2Ugc3RpY2t5PyBPciBkbyB0aGV5IGFsd2F5cyByZWZlciB0byB0aGUgbW9zdCByZWNlbnQgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgc3VtdGk_CgoKT24gV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1iZXIgMTcsIDIwMTQgODozMiBBTSwgTWljaGFlbCBUdXJuaWFuc2t5IDxtdHVybmlhbnNreUBnbWFpbC5jb20.IHdyb3RlOgogCgoKICBEbyB3ZSByZWFsbHkgbmVlZCB0bz8gIEkgbWVhbiwgIHZ5IGJ1LCBreSBidSwgYW5kIHkneSBidSBhcmVuJ3QBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: Message-ID: <1410966231.70554.YahooMailNeo@web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:03:51 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1013620071-43947211-1410966231=:70554" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --1013620071-43947211-1410966231=:70554 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cute (especially the proposed orthographies). Are these sticky? Or do they= always refer to the most recent appropriate sumti? On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 8:32 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: =20 Do we really need to? I mean, vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbovla= ste, and those are all in the CLL. I am not adding any new functionality = to the language. nubu: BY* letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1=8F=84 (unicode 13c4)), used as an impl= icit prosumti for most recent sumti starting with the word nu kabu: BY* letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an impli= cit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka du'ubu: BY* letteral ( proposed orthography=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an implic= it prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word du'u --gejyspa =20 On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to jb= ovlaste or at least here? > > >2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky : > > >> >> >> >> A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit = BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors. Now, accordin= g to CLL 7.5.8: >> The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series pro= -sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are taken= to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning with the s= ame letter >> =20 >> And similarly in 17.9.2: >> If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a singl= e lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti wh= ose name or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu >> That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to tim= e about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti. Some suggest counting= the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest using the fir= st letter of the internal bridi. This poses two problems. First, consider= the following: >> >> >> la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny >> >> >> Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming? It depends on which= one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has t= he unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for ev= ents and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain vanilla= sumti (at least for implicit assignment).) >> >> >> The second problem is what do you do with an example like this: >> >> >> la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna ? >> >> >> The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction sumt= i with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare. But what would the second c= amp call it? They can't use ny, that's Norman to them. They can't use "ry= ", that's Rover himself. "ly"? Maybe, but it seems a stretch. They would= pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go'i/go= 'e/go'a, or the like/ >> >> >> >> >> Proposed solution: >> >> >> New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, a= nd can refer ONLY to the abstraction. "But if they are a letter/symbol, w= hat do they look like?" you ask. That's the beauty of lojban. It doesn't= matter, Because we are talking here only about using them as evaluatable = symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do. >> >> >> This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would m= ake discourse clearer and cleaner. =20 >> >> >> What do people think? >> >> >> --gejyspa >> >> --=20 >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. >>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --1013620071-43947211-1410966231=:70554 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cute (especially the proposed orthographies). &nbs= p;Are these sticky? Or do they always refer to the most recent appropriate = sumti?


On Wednesday, September 17,= 2014 8:32 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=


  Do we really need to?  I mean, &nb= sp;vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbovlaste, and those are all in the CLL.   I am = not adding any new functionality to the language.

nubu: BY*
letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1=8F=84 (un= icode 13c4)), used as an implicit prosumti for most recent sumti starting w= ith the word nu

kabu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an impl= icit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka
du'ubu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthog= raphy=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an implicit prosumti for must recen= t sumti starting with the word du'u

      --gejyspa


   

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"yiv9158513404gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo= rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Michael, will = you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to jbovlaste or at = least here?

2014= -09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>= :


    A subject that comes up from time to= time is ambiguity with implicit BY prosumti, especially when they interact= with abstractors.  Now, according to CLL 7.5.8:
         The main difference b= etween letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series pro-sumti is that, in the absence o= f an explicit assignment, letters are taken to refer to the most recent nam= e or description sumti beginning with the same letter
&nbs= p; 
   And similarly in 17.9.2:
  If no assignment can be found for a lerfu str= ing (especially a single lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the = most recent sumti whose name or description begins in Lojban with that l= erfu
    That's all very well and good, but ques= tions come up from time to time about what letter to use for an abstraction= sumti.  Some suggest counting the NU that marks the start of the stru= cture, others suggest using the first letter of the internal bridi.  T= his poses two problems.  First, consider the following:

 la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelc= i ny

  Does Doris like Norman,= or does she like swimming?  It depends on which one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has the unenviable pro= blem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for events and properti= es, and their concomitant unavailability for plain vanilla sumti (at least = for implicit assignment).)

  T= he second problem is what do you do with an example like this:
   la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi = gerku cu limna        ?

  The first camp would have no problem talking about the abst= raction sumti with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare.  But what w= ould the second camp call it?  They can't use ny, that's Norman to the= m.  They can't use "ry", that's Rover himself.  "ly"?  Maybe= , but it seems a stretch.  They would pretty much be forced to use exp= licit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/


  Proposed solution:

  = New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, and c= an refer ONLY  to the abstraction.  "But if they are a letter/sym= bol, what do they look like?" you ask.   That's the beauty of lojban. =  It doesn't matter,  Because we are talking here only about using= them as evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do.

  This breaks absolutely none of= the current grammar, but I think would make discourse clearer and cleaner.=  

     What do= people think?

     =              --gejyspa

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