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[216.39.62.38]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id pp6si2716133pac.0.2014.09.17.08.11.53 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.62.38 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.62.38; Received: from [216.39.60.168] by nm7.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2014 15:11:53 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.245] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2014 15:11:53 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1016.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2014 15:11:53 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 45718.36475.bm@omp1016.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 58033 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Sep 2014 15:11:52 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: vLGnHEsVM1nJnJaIRb8GzZSaPOms_xMp.gBk9JB6mz9ILV3 UFIejg1wQqvTcy1oQT1UHI52DSCjkItRRlcTEQ.LfuKmFRteMfjOyS3SQKHv e27IMYjvZnamZ_1yv6lKFn0l4S_S4dwfL77VTcPIAN4lwSV5wKnAjkA6a11T 8We3jxT8tvxgsymgg1wjvqw_IrlS1kA0IbC8jKQLRHtfCS4jDvkJ5k.LYFbM CNrwTIQkZ_TjBE.NiXUaOR.GDcj_PWlgx1u9jUr7Tfaz6IMUGURd323dhQ5G qqAgVM94i1vAlwB17aGgaFQBytlspoHrUrspLttYxS27aQGbWOTO_6xM_rUM psqarEL9XuMUaoPvYQJ1zTI9YppOfCJa1EevnbVPAaBRRApDhvXBs4mR.BHa .5xa.s06HB_K0.CyTN0FF2Sjv2VgyZ11mT9a7zKioPbg0yQMEGYkSBy36Xa4 7HCDtirOlDzlnViXY3NhX6Prjce_ZzEFCUWmzih0bs.z2B7w0z8TOTmFzU1I 1..ftJFlBJYoKqrxBCueS21cqKoGGCVAAVEY1_p3Ky2Qw1mLZkdJCfxj2KWY 0PbH6.TNjZl_7rCx8ZqNJJSiK87AwTRmZTC0jSEtbEDnBxD0YKd32KiGPhOm s.d_.hOteCFFuKaNcuh__tbW_ixXleZNd5GLS0nGGdqlS66onUu3RxDSR.8O hYDtE3DaltJ55CKb5tqHOAhVy5dYK.R_i9KNRhEzgC1z5k5zjj0F2AkRt15t 6yUZA129yv2_pHB3xmCdJi4CUUTRGI4zWI2CIIqsWRRMVEEEMEiVkU0WKgyB KQZPlb4pZM6is25xQ0XLEBQZPlksWptDQcpaMGaikASjzYA5SkJumv6AqYGI E_L5oWa2EmSAGi6hvgkN8Ctp85kbAVaSXd_sW5aK1u1AW1tfOnOq0Ygo_VXc qgj67hW7gt5MIaNoCkzbgUHRWFkQsQsJojbZ9.aWlfItb2zU8Qhlsz2vikLL TgNouReCw3wHHVq4zCitd2cReO855noHNcNMaiVwsx9EjuiEy2ss0zDc- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:11:52 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,SSBhbSBub3Qgc3VyZSBhYm91dCBnZW5lcmFsIHRyZW5kcywgYnV0LCBpZiBtZW1vcnkgc2VydmVzLCBtdWNoIG9mIG15IGFjdGl2aXR5IGluIHRoZSBlYXJseSAyMDAwcyB3YXMgYSBjb250cm92ZXJzeSB3aXRoIHhvcnhlcyAoYWxzbyBhIGJpZyBjb250cmlidXRvciBpbiB0aGF0IHRpbWUgZnJhbWUpIGFib3V0IHdoYXQgZXZlbnR1YWxseSBiZWNhbWUgeG9ybG8uICBPbmNlIGl0IHdhcyBhY2NlcHRlZCBhbmQgc29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgYW4gb2ZmaWNpYWwgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiBlc3RhYmxpc2hlZCwgdGhlIGMBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5ebfd7de-df4d-4bac-90e9-08d182557c8c@googlegroups.com> <863e6344-9008-44be-8546-eed800c0a630@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1410966712.92433.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:11:52 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Growth and decline in lojbanistan To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <863e6344-9008-44be-8546-eed800c0a630@googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.62.38 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="564456775-1645175417-1410966712=:92433" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --564456775-1645175417-1410966712=:92433 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am not sure about general trends, but, if memory serves, much of my activ= ity in the early 2000s was a controversy with xorxes (also a big contributo= r in that time frame) about what eventually became xorlo. Once it was acce= pted and something like an official definition established, the controversy= died out (I was too disgusted with the upshot to write much of anything, x= orxes did not need to do as much). There was then a dearth of interesting = problems for a while. I am not sure that that one controversy and its two = main participants should be used to make any general claims about Lojban's = popularity, etc. On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 10:38 AM, mukti wrote: =20 On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 10:21:33 AM UTC-3, xorxes wrote: > >Do we have any comparable historical statistics on the lojban irc channels= activity? My impression is that the decline in list activity is due at lea= st in part to a shift from the lists to irc, but I'm not on irc very often = so I can't really say if that's been declining as well or not. Interesting question. I plotted IRC activity alongside mailing list activity, attached below. I o= nly have data from 2003: The vreji bot began recording lojban utterances in= IRC in December 2002. I see that the the "lojban timeline" notes "a seriou= s and growing amount of spontaneous communication in Lojban over IRC" as ea= rly as 1997. The level of IRC activity seems to have been relatively flat between 2003 a= nd 2004, but mriste traffic dropped about 40% that year. IRC activity doesn= 't really take off until after 2006, and the mriste started to recover afte= r 2007. Since that time, they've both shown an overall positive trend, but = fell together in 2011 and 2013. Based only on these observations, it seems to be more the case that IRC and= mriste activity rise and fall together. But perhaps those who participated= in the mriste during the early 2000s can speak to whether their own activi= ty shifted away from the mriste and to IRC. pc, seems to have been the most active during this period, with more than 9= 00 messages in 2001, and about 850 in 2002. After 2002, his activity droppe= d sharply and in 2007 he posted fewer than 100 messages. xorxes, you seem to have been the next most active poster during that perio= d, with almost 800 messages in 2001, also dropping sharply after 2002, and = falling below 100 in 2007. Message counts for lojbab and And seem to follow a similar pattern, recordi= ng about 400-500 messages in 2001, and then falling below 100 after 2003. The only user I have tracked during this period who does not show this patt= ern is gejyspa, who posted a steady 250-275 messages from 2002-2004, and wh= ose output actually peaked in 2006 with more than 400 messages. Like the ot= hers, however, he fell below 100 messages in 2007. I have been attributing the drop-off in the 2003 mriste -- taken together w= ith the other positive indicators that year -- to the introduction of the B= PFK phpBB forum. However, it's worth noting that the forum was retired by t= he end of that year, and activity did not return to the mriste in 2004. It'= s certainly possible to argue that the decline began in 2003. The continuan= ce of peak membership in 2004 somewhat obscurs the fact that fewer than hal= f of LLG members attended the 2004 annual meeting, and quorum was only poss= ible via proxies. mi'e la mukti mu'o Notes: list posts includes the "lojban", "jboske", "lojban-beginners" and "= bpfk" lists. For irc activity, I'm using the number of lojban utterances in= korpora zei sisku, and dividing by 100 in order to be able to compare move= ment of that number with the number of list posts. For (LLG) members and LL= G actions, I multiplied by 100. LLG actions only includes non-procedural ac= tions, and does not include votes on projects in 2003. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --564456775-1645175417-1410966712=:92433 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am not sure about general trends, but, if memory= serves, much of my activity in the early 2000s was a controversy with xorx= es (also a big contributor in that time frame) about what eventually became= xorlo.  Once it was accepted and something like an official definitio= n established, the controversy died out (I was too disgusted with the upsho= t to write much of anything, xorxes did not need to do as much).  Ther= e was then a dearth of interesting problems for a while.  I am not sur= e that that one controversy and its two main participants should be used to= make any general claims about Lojban's popularity, etc.


On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 10:38 AM, mukti <shunp= iker@gmail.com> wrote:


On Tuesday, Sept= ember 16, 2014 10:21:33 AM UTC-3, xorxes wrote:
Do we have any comparable historical statistics on the lojban irc channels activ= ity? My impression is that the decline in list activity is due at least in = part to a shift from the lists to irc, but I'm not on irc very often so I c= an't really say if that's been declining as well or not.

Interesting question.
I plotted IRC activity alongside mailing lis= t activity, attached below. I only have data from 2003: The vreji bot began= recording lojban utterances in IRC in December 2002. I see that the the "<= a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://mw.lojba= n.org/index.php?title=3DLojban_timeline">lojban timeline" notes "a seri= ous and growing amount of spontaneous communication in Lojban over IRC" as = early as 1997.

The level of IRC activity = seems to have been relatively flat between 2003 and 2004, but mriste traffi= c dropped about 40% that year. IRC activity doesn't really take off until after 2006= , and the mriste started to recover after 2007. Since that time, they've bo= th shown an overall positive trend, but fell together in 2011 and 2013.

Based only on these observations, it s= eems to be more the case that IRC and mriste activity rise and fall togethe= r. But perhaps those who participated in the mriste during the early 2000s = can speak to whether their own activity shifted away from the mriste and to= IRC.

pc, seems to have been the m= ost active during this period, with more than 900 messages in 2001, and abo= ut 850 in 2002. After 2002, his activity dropped sharply and in 2007 h= e posted fewer than 100 messages.

x= orxes, you seem to have been the next most active poster during that pe= riod, with almost 800 messages in 2001, also dropping sharply after 2002, and falling below 100 in 2007.

Messag= e counts for lojbab and And seem to follow a similar pattern,= recording about 400-500 messages in 2001, and then falling below 100 after= 2003.

The only user I have tracked du= ring this period who does not show this pattern is gejyspa, who post= ed a steady 250-275 messages from 2002-2004, and whose output actually peak= ed in 2006 with more than 400 messages. Like the others, however, he fell b= elow 100 messages in 2007.

I = have been attributing the drop-off in the 2003 mriste -- taken together wit= h the other positive indicators that year -- to the introduction of the BPF= K phpBB forum. However, it's worth noting that the forum was retired by the= end of that year, and activity did not return to the mriste in 2004. It's = certainly possible to argue that the decline began in 2003. The continuance= of peak membership in 2004 somewhat obscurs the fact that fewer than half of = LLG members attended the 2004 annual meeting, and quorum was only p= ossible via proxies.

mi'e la mukti = mu'o
Notes: list post= s includes the "lojban", "jboske", "lojban-beginners" and "bpfk" lists.= For irc activity, I'm using the number of lojban utterances in = ;korpora zei sisku, and dividing by 100 in order to be able to compare movement= of that number with the number of list posts. For (LLG) members and= LLG actions, I multiplied by 100. LLG actions only incl= udes non-procedural actions, and does not include votes on projects in 2003= .
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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