Received: from mail-ig0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:37422) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XUHFE-0006XH-LL for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:34:15 -0700 Received: by mail-ig0-f189.google.com with SMTP id hn15sf56425igb.26 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:34:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Z+H9YlL1a79s+hmSUrjWx45vk5fp0Kf4WqSo4I20W7w=; b=kZRuknAdjRM1TnU9wPV/gJk5yF2niReZhn7rZVakukQltP3AU21k0uqkDXPjD5V8JJ wti5dFLBX8Ii7dk+/bUxBV3lXG2eIBcYSmskIpGJhabIaHf6CSiUURAEqz0mYZbTfBP5 dSwKHfHSA9dZi5kK9cKpd4AmSTURMZjXBDZvqfbQnmRQPO8KnRkS7RfQcYxY5szUPHYC 2Wvyh/JaDGKBmt2YatqukDhNughN5iHkbhzNtkO7rBngVS5lvHGgsJ7ef3kW1+LEz26N fHcesCrqJrxWO6Lj22Pybjtkhaf8Ab+mO3ofrQrkWDBJcuybArEp9OMkRrNkn0ZYGkLR A5VA== X-Received: by 10.50.79.201 with SMTP id l9mr508478igx.5.1410968046224; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:34:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.79.198 with SMTP id l6ls853256igx.39.gmail; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:34:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.68.204.97 with SMTP id kx1mr25044056pbc.7.1410968044990; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x233.google.com (mail-qc0-x233.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k7si886929qcm.2.2014.09.17.08.34.04 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233; Received: by mail-qc0-x233.google.com with SMTP id i17so2307790qcy.38 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:34:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.129.201 with SMTP id p9mr58024512qas.75.1410968044830; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.201.74 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:34:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1410966231.70554.YahooMailNeo@web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1410966231.70554.YahooMailNeo@web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 11:34:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2cc0a1a27d1050344992c X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c2cc0a1a27d1050344992c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They would always be the most recent closed sumti, (unless assigned explicitly with goi), just like any other implicit BY assignment. (and thanks re: the orthographies) On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 11:03 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban < lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > Cute (especially the proposed orthographies). Are these sticky? Or do > they always refer to the most recent appropriate sumti? > > > On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 8:32 AM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Do we really need to? I mean, vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in > jbovlaste, and those are all in the CLL. I am not adding any new > functionality to the language. > > nubu: BY* > letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1=8F=84 (unicode 13c4)), used as an im= plicit > prosumti for most recent sumti starting with the word nu > > kabu: BY* > letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an imp= licit > prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka > > du'ubu: BY* > letteral ( proposed orthography=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an impl= icit > prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word du'u > > --gejyspa > > > > > On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > > Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to > jbovlaste or at least here? > > 2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky : > > > > A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit > BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors. Now, > according to CLL 7.5.8: > > The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series > pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are > taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning wit= h > the same letter > > > And similarly in 17.9.2: > > If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a single > lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti whose na= me > or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu > > That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to tim= e > about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti. Some suggest counting > the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest using the > first letter of the internal bridi. This poses two problems. First, > consider the following: > > la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny > > Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming? It depends on which > one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has > the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for > events and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain > vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).) > > The second problem is what do you do with an example like this: > > la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna ? > > The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction sumt= i > with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare. But what would the second > camp call it? They can't use ny, that's Norman to them. They can't use > "ry", that's Rover himself. "ly"? Maybe, but it seems a stretch. They > would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se > go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/ > > > Proposed solution: > > New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, > and can refer ONLY to the abstraction. "But if they are a letter/symbol= , > what do they look like?" you ask. That's the beauty of lojban. It > doesn't matter, Because we are talking here only about using them as > evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do. > > This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would > make discourse clearer and cleaner. > > What do people think? > > --gejyspa > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c2cc0a1a27d1050344992c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 They would always be the most recent closed sumti, = =C2=A0(unless assigned explicitly with goi), just like any other implicit B= Y assignment.

=C2=A0 (and thanks re: the orthographies)<= /div>


On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 11:03 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lo= jban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Cute (especially the proposed orthographies). = =C2=A0Are these sticky? Or do they always refer to the most recent appropri= ate sumti?


On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 8:32 AM, Michae= l Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:


=C2=A0 Do we really need to? =C2=A0I mean, =C2=A0vy= bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbovlaste, and those are all in the CLL. =C2= =A0 I am not adding any new functionality to the language.

nubu: BY*
letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1= =8F=84 (unicode 13c4)), used as an implicit prosumti for most recent sumti = starting with the word nu

kabu: BY*=
letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used = as an implicit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka

du'ubu: BY*
letteral ( p= roposed orthography=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an implicit prosumti = for must recent sumti starting with the word du'u

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa
<= div>

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:= 59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.m= y.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du&= #39;ubu to jbovlaste or at least here?

2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A subject that comes up from time to time is = ambiguity with implicit BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abs= tractors. =C2=A0Now, according to CLL 7.5.8:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0=C2=A0The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series p= ro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are tak= en to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning with the= same letter
=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0And simil= arly in 17.9.2:
=C2=A0 If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string = (especially a single lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most= recent sumti whose name or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That's all very well and good, but ques= tions come up from time to time about what letter to use for an abstraction= sumti. =C2=A0Some suggest counting the NU that marks the start of the stru= cture, others suggest using the first letter of the internal bridi. =C2=A0T= his poses two problems. =C2=A0First, consider the following:

=C2=A0la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelc= i ny

=C2=A0 Does Doris like Norman,= or does she like swimming? =C2=A0It depends on which one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has the unenviable pro= blem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for= events and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain vani= lla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).)

=C2=A0 The second problem is what do you do with an example lik= e this:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0la normyn nelc= i lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0?
<= br clear=3D"none">
=C2=A0 The first camp would have no problem ta= lking about the abstraction sumti with an implicit BY "It's ny,&qu= ot; they declare. =C2=A0But what would the second camp call it? =C2=A0They = can't use ny, that's Norman to them. =C2=A0They can't use "= ;ry", that's Rover himself. =C2=A0"ly"? =C2=A0Maybe, but= it seems a stretch. =C2=A0They would pretty much be forced to use explicit= goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/


=C2=A0 Proposed solution:

=C2=A0 = New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, and c= an refer ONLY =C2=A0to the abstraction. =C2=A0"But if they are a lette= r/symbol, what do they look like?" you ask. =C2=A0 That's the beau= ty of lojban. =C2=A0It doesn't matter, =C2=A0Because we are talking her= e only about using them as evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which an= y lerfu can do.

=C2=A0 This breaks = absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would make discourse cl= earer and cleaner. =C2=A0

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0What do people think?

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejy= spa

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