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[216.39.63.158]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id pk7si2707053pbc.2.2014.09.17.09.24.22 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.158 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.158; Received: from [216.39.60.165] by nm10.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2014 16:24:22 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.240] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2014 16:24:22 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1011.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2014 16:24:22 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 80378.90337.bm@omp1011.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 25059 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Sep 2014 16:24:21 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: n4wih3EVM1mKUwPT0Pzc5uswhrWc4goZiB5lxUu0pfXX_a0 eQhAKKiYzKnJcXPguEKeLTMS7NqzBvF1OlM7WemtsxuUcRr4RzBvPmX7A_aZ aZV3gu8iEpWC7LQY6MAoiLQOKxGtBee135i72rA8_t3E1sCzV5jnqC22KKJP 1Gc1bR82HlDA_vJH0Ot1WPXkA5rlFp_wpyO9sr7d30RIoEBjDkeMLt5EVj1j Zc0IKSPlGHpatDqRoJ26nYLmm9P0S.X87guW8Y5yUqQcRvyR111zhs7Jvpmr 47LApU8RVGcdQWQGgYpj3RC0S9hFrDkycY1A6rehyI6WSgQIGeaHZXy2mE4l 5SKMRRQFzlTarOHzynRDTw6hlEvxhaxdngIYaYD4YBncdNzrfKOdTMHjhD15 6y.OS0l3Zxybm47d7x9QH7G1gJxgzCDslpn36N60J0BU7nHKS2IawZX8jXgD hOO7ZJUL1WtW4d9692oO2JUTWfjzns_BlA7yPXcCZdKe9GmG2DTUGLRkMdFh Rgdfm7UXTgv3pnCA2ASUxWp43529mqvB7lgvbGdymoHDiXG5ZD7EdpLwg_ee dNm.VBR8tHrIxvffnc3Ii2gvJR_tC60kACmjUPytlDNUu3JAn4T.u3dAqIoQ Q_r2dEDB5aEaO9.Admb1WF6ndt.T_cmQiVVNEmoOxJhmsdUV1rqjVzwpjayr uzX2pTAc8dRThPHMsbaQgt5ThJmz8aD0ubRWRBFOj2_k- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:24:21 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,VG9vIGJhZDsgdGhlIHN0aWNreSB2ZXJzaW9uIGlzIHVzdWFsbHkgbW9yZSB1c2VmdWwgKGFuZCBpcyBob3cgSSB1c2Ugb3JkaW5hcnkgQlkpLgoKCk9uIFdlZG5lc2RheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDE3LCAyMDE0IDEwOjM0IEFNLCBNaWNoYWVsIFR1cm5pYW5za3kgPG10dXJuaWFuc2t5QGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6CiAKCgogIFRoZXkgd291bGQgYWx3YXlzIGJlIHRoZSBtb3N0IHJlY2VudCBjbG9zZWQgc3VtdGksICAodW5sZXNzIGFzc2lnbmVkIGV4cGxpY2l0bHkgd2l0aCBnb2kpLCBqdXN0IGxpa2UgYW55IG8BMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <1410966231.70554.YahooMailNeo@web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1410971061.8180.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:24:21 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.158 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="564456775-1888414014-1410971061=:8180" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --564456775-1888414014-1410971061=:8180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Too bad; the sticky version is usually more useful (and is how I use ordina= ry BY). On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 10:34 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: =20 They would always be the most recent closed sumti, (unless assigned expl= icitly with goi), just like any other implicit BY assignment. (and thanks re: the orthographies) On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 11:03 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: Cute (especially the proposed orthographies). Are these sticky? Or do they= always refer to the most recent appropriate sumti? > > > >On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 8:32 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: >=20 > > > Do we really need to? I mean, vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbovl= aste, and those are all in the CLL. I am not adding any new functionality= to the language. > > >nubu: BY* >letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1=8F=84 (unicode 13c4)), used as an imp= licit prosumti for most recent sumti starting with the word nu > > >kabu: BY* >letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an impl= icit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka > > >du'ubu: BY* >letteral ( proposed orthography=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an impli= cit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word du'u > > > > --gejyspa > > > > > =20 > > >On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > >Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to j= bovlaste or at least here? >> >> >>2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky : >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit= BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors. Now, accordi= ng to CLL 7.5.8: >>> The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series pr= o-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are take= n to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning with the = same letter >>> =20 >>> And similarly in 17.9.2: >>> If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a sing= le lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti w= hose name or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu >>> That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to ti= me about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti. Some suggest countin= g the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest using the fi= rst letter of the internal bridi. This poses two problems. First, conside= r the following: >>> >>> >>> la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny >>> >>> >>> Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming? It depends on whic= h one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has = the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for e= vents and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain vanill= a sumti (at least for implicit assignment).) >>> >>> >>> The second problem is what do you do with an example like this: >>> >>> >>> la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna ? >>> >>> >>> The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction sum= ti with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare. But what would the second = camp call it? They can't use ny, that's Norman to them. They can't use "r= y", that's Rover himself. "ly"? Maybe, but it seems a stretch. They woul= d pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go'i/g= o'e/go'a, or the like/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Proposed solution: >>> >>> >>> New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, = and can refer ONLY to the abstraction. "But if they are a letter/symbol, = what do they look like?" you ask. That's the beauty of lojban. It doesn'= t matter, Because we are talking here only about using them as evaluatable= symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do. >>> >>> >>> This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would = make discourse clearer and cleaner. =20 >>> >>> >>> What do people think? >>> >>> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> --=20 >>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >>--=20 >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. >>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > --=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --564456775-1888414014-1410971061=:8180 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Too bad; the sticky version is usually more useful (and = is how I use ordinary BY).


On Wednesday, Se= ptember 17, 2014 10:34 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>= wrote:


  They would always be the mo= st recent closed sumti,  (unless assigned explicitly with goi), just l= ike any other implicit BY assignment.

  (and than= ks re: the orthographies)


On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 11:03 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojba= n <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"yiv2118704159gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo= rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Cute (especially the proposed orthographies).  Are = these sticky? Or do they always refer to the most recent appropriate sumti?


=
= On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 8:32 AM, Michael Tu= rniansky <mturn= iansky@gmail.com> wrote:


  Do we= really need to?  I mean,  vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbovlaste, and those are all in the CLL.   I am = not adding any new functionality to the language.

nubu: BY*
letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1=8F=84 (un= icode 13c4)), used as an implicit prosumti for most recent sumti starting w= ith the word nu

kabu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an impl= icit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka
du'ubu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthog= raphy=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an implicit prosumti for must recen= t sumti starting with the word du'u

      --gejyspa


   

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxok= una <gleki.is.m= y.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du= 'ubu to jbovlaste or at least here?

2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:


    A subj= ect that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit BY prosumti,= especially when they interact with abstractors.  Now, according to CLL 7.5.8:
     =     The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-se= ries pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters a= re taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning wi= th the same letter
  
   And= similarly in 17.9.2:
  If no assignment can be found for a lerfu = string (especially a single lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to t= he most recent sumti whose name or description begins in Lojban with tha= t lerfu
    That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to time about what letter to use for an ab= straction sumti.  Some suggest counting the NU that marks the start of= the structure, others suggest using the first letter of the internal bridi= .  This poses two problems.  First, consider the following:
=

 la normyn prami lo nu limna i la d= orys nelci ny

  Does Doris lik= e Norman, or does she like swimming?  It depends on which one of the a= bove approaches the author uses (the first approach also has the unenviable pro= blem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for events and properti= es, and their concomitant unavailability for plain vanilla sumti (at least = for implicit assignment).)

  T= he second problem is what do you do with an example like this:
   la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi = gerku cu limna        ?

  The first camp would have no problem talking about the abst= raction sumti with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare.  But what w= ould the second camp call it?  They can't use ny, that's Norman to the= m.  They can't use "ry", that's Rover himself.  "ly"?  Maybe= , but it seems a stretch.  They would pretty much be forced to use exp= licit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/


  Proposed solution:

  = New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, and c= an refer ONLY  to the abstraction.  "But if they are a letter/sym= bol, what do they look like?" you ask.   That's the beauty of lojban. =  It doesn't matter,  Because we are talking here only about using= them as evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do.

  This breaks absolutely none of= the current grammar, but I think would make discourse clearer and cleaner.=  

     What do= people think?

     =              --gejyspa

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