Received: from mail-oi0-f56.google.com ([209.85.218.56]:42148) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XUKjp-00005D-7t for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:18:02 -0700 Received: by mail-oi0-f56.google.com with SMTP id u20sf332269oif.1 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:17:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=PQvjgtOp0szP/7ZrmAFWGev1RUFJYB8fflGFTB1YmPs=; b=eVFYEJpZUY4El+UKlFZkhM+iUO/TocsUn8kU5ZOX3ZIoZ6CgN+tbnNCsZr5zGTrXo0 9Cu9Uyzxo+FGRwuG412T+qhAuw2BwwJF2jZ1Y9nLcJiDi1enk+gDuoP6JPKqA903SCKP cajIeB6lPxydosGbjmNQagIA9zz6HdhKBZ7w+laqz87DTE+xKEf460D+eFl3orbEKNxv bXKucJpAy4DYqKkiYIQY816MBJPJOZiDfiJPUHM6S4j/5tb+tu9m0lQ77vYxIi0q4KwD ChMRzJ9ymTVsPpYEA8pAjsfxSp8higbZ6pGc+y3aMz0hklsZ7cIuUGAANBrdlgmFbXOR Yxkg== X-Received: by 10.50.30.38 with SMTP id p6mr173499igh.8.1410981474445; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:17:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.7.9 with SMTP id f9ls1044526iga.27.gmail; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:17:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.153.98 with SMTP id vf2mr554387igb.5.1410981473823; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22b.google.com (mail-qg0-x22b.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ld1si2666066qcb.3.2014.09.17.12.17.53 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22b; Received: by mail-qg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id a108so2543280qge.2 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:17:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.121.7 with SMTP id f7mr32948968qcr.28.1410981473638; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.201.74 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:17:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1410971061.8180.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1410966231.70554.YahooMailNeo@web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1410971061.8180.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:17:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134422a85a4b6050347b914 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1134422a85a4b6050347b914 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, if that is how you use ordinarily use them, then you could do the same with these. (I assume that they are implicitly "stuck" with the most recent qualifying sumti when you first use the BY, and until you use da'o? I would find that a bit annoying, meself...) --gejyspa On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 12:24 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban < lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > Too bad; the sticky version is usually more useful (and is how I use > ordinary BY). > > > On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 10:34 AM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > > > They would always be the most recent closed sumti, (unless assigned > explicitly with goi), just like any other implicit BY assignment. > > (and thanks re: the orthographies) > > > On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 11:03 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban < > lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Cute (especially the proposed orthographies). Are these sticky? Or do > they always refer to the most recent appropriate sumti? > > > On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 8:32 AM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Do we really need to? I mean, vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in > jbovlaste, and those are all in the CLL. I am not adding any new > functionality to the language. > > nubu: BY* > letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1=8F=84 (unicode 13c4)), used as an im= plicit > prosumti for most recent sumti starting with the word nu > > kabu: BY* > letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an imp= licit > prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka > > du'ubu: BY* > letteral ( proposed orthography=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an impl= icit > prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word du'u > > --gejyspa > > > > > On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > > Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to > jbovlaste or at least here? > > 2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky : > > > > A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit > BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors. Now, > according to CLL 7.5.8: > > The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series > pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are > taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning wit= h > the same letter > > > And similarly in 17.9.2: > > If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a single > lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti whose na= me > or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu > > That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to tim= e > about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti. Some suggest counting > the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest using the > first letter of the internal bridi. This poses two problems. First, > consider the following: > > la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny > > Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming? It depends on which > one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has > the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for > events and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain > vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).) > > The second problem is what do you do with an example like this: > > la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna ? > > The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction sumt= i > with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare. But what would the second > camp call it? They can't use ny, that's Norman to them. They can't use > "ry", that's Rover himself. "ly"? Maybe, but it seems a stretch. They > would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se > go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/ > > > Proposed solution: > > New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, > and can refer ONLY to the abstraction. "But if they are a letter/symbol= , > what do they look like?" you ask. That's the beauty of lojban. It > doesn't matter, Because we are talking here only about using them as > evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do. > > This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would > make discourse clearer and cleaner. > > What do people think? > > --gejyspa > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1134422a85a4b6050347b914 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Well, if that is how you use ordinarily use them, t= hen you could do the same with these. =C2=A0(I assume that they are implici= tly "stuck" with the most recent qualifying sumti when you first = use the BY, and until you use da'o? =C2=A0I would find that a bit annoy= ing, meself...)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa
=


On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 12:24 PM, 'John E Clif= ford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:<= br>
Too bad; the sticky version is usual= ly more useful (and is how I use ordinary BY).
=


On Wednesday, Septe= mber 17, 2014 10:34 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:


=C2=A0 They would alw= ays be the most recent closed sumti, =C2=A0(unless assigned explicitly with= goi), just like any other implicit BY assignment.

=C2=A0 (and than= ks re: the orthographies)


On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 11:03 AM, 'John E Cli= fford' via lojban <lojban@google= groups.com> wrote:
Cute (especially the proposed orthographi= es). =C2=A0Are these sticky? Or do they always refer to the most recent appropriate sumti?
=


On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 8:32 AM, Michael Turniansky &l= t;mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
<= /font>


=C2=A0 Do we really need to? =C2=A0I mean, =C2=A0vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbovlaste, and those are all in the CLL. =C2= =A0 I am not adding any new functionality to the language.

nubu: BY*
letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1= =8F=84 (unicode 13c4)), used as an implicit prosumti for most recent sumti = starting with the word nu

kabu: BY*=
letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used = as an implicit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka

du'ubu: BY*
letteral ( p= roposed orthography=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an implicit prosumti = for must recent sumti starting with the word du'u

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa
<= div>

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:= 59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.m= y.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du&= #39;ubu to jbovlaste or at least here?

2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A subject that comes up from time to time is = ambiguity with implicit BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors. =C2=A0Now, according to CLL 7.5.8:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'= a-series pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, lette= rs are taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginnin= g with the same letter
=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0And similarly in 17.9.2:
=C2=A0 If no assignment can be found for a l= erfu string (especially a single lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer= to the most recent sumti whose name or description begins in Lojban wit= h that lerfu
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That's all very well and go= od, but questions come up from time to time about what letter to use for an ab= straction sumti. =C2=A0Some suggest counting the NU that marks the start of= the structure, others suggest using the first letter of the internal bridi= . =C2=A0This poses two problems. =C2=A0First, consider the following:
=

=C2=A0la normyn prami lo nu limna i la d= orys nelci ny

=C2=A0 Does Doris lik= e Norman, or does she like swimming? =C2=A0It depends on which one of the a= bove approaches the author uses (the first approach also has the unenviable pro= blem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for= events and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain vani= lla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).)

=C2=A0 The second problem is what do you do with an example lik= e this:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0la normyn nelc= i lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0?
<= br clear=3D"none">
=C2=A0 The first camp would have no problem ta= lking about the abstraction sumti with an implicit BY "It's ny,&qu= ot; they declare. =C2=A0But what would the second camp call it? =C2=A0They = can't use ny, that's Norman to them. =C2=A0They can't use "= ;ry", that's Rover himself. =C2=A0"ly"? =C2=A0Maybe, but= it seems a stretch. =C2=A0They would pretty much be forced to use explicit= goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/


=C2=A0 Proposed solution:

=C2=A0 = New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, and c= an refer ONLY =C2=A0to the abstraction. =C2=A0"But if they are a lette= r/symbol, what do they look like?" you ask. =C2=A0 That's the beau= ty of lojban. =C2=A0It doesn't matter, =C2=A0Because we are talking her= e only about using them as evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which an= y lerfu can do.

=C2=A0 This breaks = absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would make discourse cl= earer and cleaner. =C2=A0

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0What do people think?

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejy= spa

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