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[98.138.91.253]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s3si15212ign.2.2014.09.17.12.31.43 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Sep 2014 12:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.253 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.91.253; Received: from [98.138.226.180] by nm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2014 19:31:43 -0000 Received: from [98.138.104.116] by tm15.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2014 19:31:43 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp225.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Sep 2014 19:31:43 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 484857.82640.bm@smtp225.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: J_l2vNYVM1nT_6rZmmgIvyYt7CJQ8vt1aKRfk1bihSQOcDR aTYQlsOuz83LdtqrcjZew.kRHUmhaKRXmcbhadrGD4AYLzQ1sVTQUUN8zove 9EKo2i7Y.8ptBpysdQMMZ0_4mi_yRQDJpJz4t2IPGAEvmjg39epOMSW8Lhuo l7._5gHnP1cGg4eY3mL2deYDCUX_XxcJREbSov_LXiQAGK9hTpZZlz1QCI40 Ga0AZmYohb490yj1clmLTVtQCRDOrjNQnMfm7.iIkvWUnCJSJ8GNhO9tMOgr sfLy3hKEPtqkHyQJyOEERNYQ2BSwJhdY9.b657q.miwkyMqOCZKnmKZgLMeT JYZUpMmPMnx6Qr_egeFKpjAGEQmdUohMjUXcpfw708tql_LF0nN1KywYc7Lz wdreNSYr1Ws49BTxkn5I4wAjES5EzSf1CyJ95BWR3VNDxvS37qSQBi6MmF9R PLhMN5d411vDjB2ym5GS4DR2pLv5MhwME21rhI.jDMYDc_5bA87wtXVNKpR3 uWNGQBF53CG0795Zg2IXI3x9C.uYL6cBL9A1Xo5394U.r1hgosiqYrGEOm8t LF_WWOUMudjtI2XuD2KHqh2EAOwZLdAtb3l1Yh.Ipq1fln49VbmMsrklEBux 4Uqu3X6SI7NBAcheqM54k5YbiJZMif0YV1CkzjmAstp.VfLEVrTziKSnZglD k.rnYm3K5.KAdtDLFVW.f X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Subject: Re: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu References: <1410966231.70554.YahooMailNeo@web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1410971061.8180.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: "'John E. Clifford' via lojban" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <52555CBD-5019-45F2-A377-109C9E3F4503@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:31:42 -0500 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.253 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: "John E. Clifford" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-351BCB78-A7B7-4B1F-BDA2-02BBA14D1056 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.3 X-Spam_score_int: -2 X-Spam_bar: / --Apple-Mail-351BCB78-A7B7-4B1F-BDA2-02BBA14D1056 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Don't think I ever used {da'o}, but I seem to recall a case of{bi'u} when a= nother sumti on the same letter rose to prominence. Sent from my iPad On Sep 17, 2014, at 14:17, Michael Turniansky wrote= : > Well, if that is how you use ordinarily use them, then you could do the= same with these. (I assume that they are implicitly "stuck" with the most= recent qualifying sumti when you first use the BY, and until you use da'o?= I would find that a bit annoying, meself...) >=20 > --gejyspa >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 12:24 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: > Too bad; the sticky version is usually more useful (and is how I use ordi= nary BY). >=20 >=20 > On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 10:34 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: >=20 >=20 > They would always be the most recent closed sumti, (unless assigned ex= plicitly with goi), just like any other implicit BY assignment. >=20 > (and thanks re: the orthographies) >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 11:03 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: > Cute (especially the proposed orthographies). Are these sticky? Or do th= ey always refer to the most recent appropriate sumti? >=20 >=20 > On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 8:32 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: >=20 >=20 > Do we really need to? I mean, vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbov= laste, and those are all in the CLL. I am not adding any new functionalit= y to the language. >=20 > nubu: BY* > letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1=8F=84 (unicode 13c4)), used as an im= plicit prosumti for most recent sumti starting with the word nu >=20 > kabu: BY* > letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an imp= licit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka >=20 > du'ubu: BY* > letteral ( proposed orthography=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an impl= icit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word du'u >=20 > --gejyspa >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to = jbovlaste or at least here? >=20 > 2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky : >=20 >=20 > A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit = BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors. Now, accordin= g to CLL 7.5.8: > The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series pro= -sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are taken= to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning with the s= ame letter > =20 > And similarly in 17.9.2: > If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a single l= erfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti whose name = or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu > That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to tim= e about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti. Some suggest counting= the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest using the fir= st letter of the internal bridi. This poses two problems. First, consider= the following: >=20 > la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny >=20 > Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming? It depends on which= one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has t= he unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for ev= ents and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain vanilla= sumti (at least for implicit assignment).) >=20 > The second problem is what do you do with an example like this: >=20 > la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna ? >=20 > The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction sumt= i with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare. But what would the second c= amp call it? They can't use ny, that's Norman to them. They can't use "ry= ", that's Rover himself. "ly"? Maybe, but it seems a stretch. They would= pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go'i/go= 'e/go'a, or the like/ >=20 >=20 > Proposed solution: >=20 > New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, a= nd can refer ONLY to the abstraction. "But if they are a letter/symbol, w= hat do they look like?" you ask. That's the beauty of lojban. It doesn't= matter, Because we are talking here only about using them as evaluatable = symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do. >=20 > This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would m= ake discourse clearer and cleaner. =20 >=20 > What do people think? >=20 > --gejyspa >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --Apple-Mail-351BCB78-A7B7-4B1F-BDA2-02BBA14D1056 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Don't think I ever used {= da'o}, but I seem to recall a case of{bi'u} when another sumti on the same = letter rose to prominence.


Sent from my iPad
On Sep 17, 2014, at 14:17, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

  Well, if that is= how you use ordinarily use them, then you could do the same with these. &n= bsp;(I assume that they are implicitly "stuck" with the most recent qualify= ing sumti when you first use the BY, and until you use da'o?  I would = find that a bit annoying, meself...)

     = ;--gejyspa



On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 12:= 24 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>= wrote:
Too bad; the sticky v= ersion is usually more useful (and is how I use ordinary BY).


<= div dir=3D"ltr"> On Wednesday, September 17, 2014 10:= 34 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

=
  They would always be the most r= ecent closed sumti,  (unless assigned explicitly with goi), just like = any other implicit BY assignment.

  (and than= ks re: the orthographies)


On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 11:03 AM, 'John E Cliffor= d' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.c= om> wrote:
<= div>Cute (especially the proposed orthographies).  Are these sti= cky? Or do they always refer to the most recent appropriate sumti?
=


On Wednesday, Septembe= r 17, 2014 8:32 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmai= l.com> wrote:

=
  Do we really nee= d to?  I mean,  vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbovlaste, and those are all in the CLL.   I am = not adding any new functionality to the language.

nubu: BY*
letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1=8F=84 (un= icode 13c4)), used as an implicit prosumti for most recent sumti starting w= ith the word nu

kabu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an impl= icit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka
du'ubu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthog= raphy=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an implicit prosumti for must recen= t sumti starting with the word du'u

      --gejyspa


   

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxok= una <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Michael, w= ill you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to jbovlaste or= at least here?

2014-09-05 17:25 GM= T+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mturnians= ky@gmail.com>:


 =   A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implici= t BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors.  Now, according to CLL 7.5.8:
     &= nbsp;   The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-ser= ies pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters ar= e taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning wit= h the same letter
  
   And = similarly in 17.9.2:
  If no assignment can be found for a lerfu st= ring (especially a single lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the= most recent sumti whose name or description begins in Lojban with that = lerfu
    That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to time about what letter to use for an ab= straction sumti.  Some suggest counting the NU that marks the start of= the structure, others suggest using the first letter of the internal bridi= .  This poses two problems.  First, consider the following:
=

 la normyn prami lo nu limna i la d= orys nelci ny

  Does Doris lik= e Norman, or does she like swimming?  It depends on which one of the a= bove approaches the author uses (the first approach also has the unenviable pro= blem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for events and properti= es, and their concomitant unavailability for plain vanilla sumti (at least = for implicit assignment).)

  T= he second problem is what do you do with an example like this:
   la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi = gerku cu limna        ?

  The first camp would have no problem talking about the abst= raction sumti with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare.  But what w= ould the second camp call it?  They can't use ny, that's Norman to the= m.  They can't use "ry", that's Rover himself.  "ly"?  Maybe= , but it seems a stretch.  They would pretty much be forced to use exp= licit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/


  Proposed solution:

  = New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, and c= an refer ONLY  to the abstraction.  "But if they are a letter/sym= bol, what do they look like?" you ask.   That's the beauty of lojban. =  It doesn't matter,  Because we are talking here only about using= them as evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do.

  This breaks absolutely none of= the current grammar, but I think would make discourse clearer and cleaner.=  

     What do= people think?

     =              --gejyspa

=
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