Received: from mail-qc0-f186.google.com ([209.85.216.186]:47143) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XUQ7s-0006Oq-Vl for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:03:13 -0700 Received: by mail-qc0-f186.google.com with SMTP id i8sf35450qcq.13 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:03:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=S5PCEC0HWUgQilOqduVVe2lutrqQktNAGoYLq/S4ihs=; b=p7U5HEstVhjTduuSfmXz8l6TKxpyfTgF7pZ1JLZ/VmbcoGcnDYGHrrp8JtAox6RxLM UJK0PRTwtemiId9HxnRllzsTOiRvpAjgF9zqUZiRUwnv+z4VfTop4yon+rnw60IzAg2P JemjJfnnEWWhscNQIezpZiDEG6H59tTWFjk6VsR+n1HccACY+aRW/zE1tgB4oWZ1EyHl DAP507WPq4Jw4jKKWq2SeDF88UKCe3C2O6AlEpZAwDSB/y7wbzVijaF73CA6g0QiOSx1 TVo3LuS0wjEGlzc6Lx6WnO0zJ5yyuq0Ilc5YyWuDWn7pdG0M48v3CpeNUb3p544f9rp3 Q+VQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=S5PCEC0HWUgQilOqduVVe2lutrqQktNAGoYLq/S4ihs=; b=gYYYpP0WKZG0VMsGcIPlgxiE5Swc2nDx4lvwwbbQgJ9/KEbTGtSh0g3QyQcfDR/Yxp /X3/Ucur4ulVkSwjkX/2O9jUFT9Khuh36vGAflRZG39fwY+WKqP5nzbqa3mQhPkWSp7f weGJiJlso1cJBNrz1lo4OYrPf2DCemdGjODbb8U03VgG8pFW+Uq9NylCrjDx80BQk+qi oLE1+R+XMdAqbj4+DilyVHViYfaCv7vZu1suNSUl8sjBc/X/P/UfmQvWfPiXaxisO9AB HK+o+qC0hwR/KMn0yuHRk1lHvk5BcqOv+YfqpYsNl53+wjvmopU65r6CKyxG3L6UKgqI HKvg== X-Received: by 10.182.29.106 with SMTP id j10mr1042obh.12.1411002186116; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:03:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.22.99 with SMTP id c3ls432451obf.24.gmail; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:03:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.186.103 with SMTP id fj7mr26708obc.2.1411002184736; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:03:03 -0700 (PDT) From: la durka To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: durka42@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1314_1387806784.1411002183957" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_1314_1387806784.1411002183957 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like this proposal a lot. It couldn't hurt to add these to jbovlaste. The only problem is if you've used a {se du'u} or {se li'i} etc. To make a= =20 NU-anaphora in that case you would have to do something gross like {lo'u se= =20 du'u le'u bu}. Or you could just use {du'ubu} anyway if it's not ambiguous. mu'o mi'e la durka El mi=C3=A9rcoles, 17 de septiembre de 2014 09:32:40 UTC-4, gejyspa escribi= =C3=B3: > > Do we really need to? I mean, vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in=20 > jbovlaste, and those are all in the CLL. I am not adding any new=20 > functionality to the language. > > nubu: BY* > letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1=8F=84 (unicode 13c4)), used as an im= plicit=20 > prosumti for most recent sumti starting with the word nu > > kabu: BY* > letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an imp= licit=20 > prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka > > du'ubu: BY* > letteral ( proposed orthography=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an impl= icit=20 > prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word du'u > > --gejyspa > > > =20 > > On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: > >> Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to= =20 >> jbovlaste or at least here? >> >> 2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky > >: >> >>> >>> >>> A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implici= t=20 >>> BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors. Now,=20 >>> according to CLL 7.5.8: >>> >>>> The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series= =20 >>>> pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters a= re=20 >>>> taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning = with=20 >>>> the same letter >>> >>> =20 >>> And similarly in 17.9.2: >>> >>>> If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a singl= e=20 >>>> lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti whose= name=20 >>>> or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu >>> >>> That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to= =20 >>> time about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti. Some suggest= =20 >>> counting the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest u= sing=20 >>> the first letter of the internal bridi. This poses two problems. Firs= t,=20 >>> consider the following: >>> >>> la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny >>> >>> Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming? It depends on=20 >>> which one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach a= lso=20 >>> has the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" us= ed=20 >>> for events and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for pla= in=20 >>> vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).) >>> >>> The second problem is what do you do with an example like this: >>> >>> la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna ? >>> >>> The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction=20 >>> sumti with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare. But what would the= =20 >>> second camp call it? They can't use ny, that's Norman to them. They c= an't=20 >>> use "ry", that's Rover himself. "ly"? Maybe, but it seems a stretch.= =20 >>> They would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra= /ru,=20 >>> se go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/ >>> >>> >>> Proposed solution: >>> >>> New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer,= =20 >>> and can refer ONLY to the abstraction. "But if they are a letter/symb= ol,=20 >>> what do they look like?" you ask. That's the beauty of lojban. It=20 >>> doesn't matter, Because we are talking here only about using them as= =20 >>> evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do. >>> >>> This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would= =20 >>> make discourse clearer and cleaner. =20 >>> >>> What do people think? >>> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> --=20 >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com=20 >>> . >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com=20 >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1314_1387806784.1411002183957 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I like this proposal a lot. It couldn't hurt to add these = to jbovlaste.

The only problem is if you've used a {se du'u} or {se = li'i} etc. To make a NU-anaphora in that case you would have to do somethin= g gross like {lo'u se du'u le'u bu}. Or you could just use {du'ubu} anyway = if it's not ambiguous.

mu'o mi'e la durka

El mi=C3=A9rcoles, = 17 de septiembre de 2014 09:32:40 UTC-4, gejyspa escribi=C3=B3:
  Do we really need = to?  I mean,  vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbovlaste, and t= hose are all in the CLL.   I am not adding any new functionality to th= e language.

nubu: BY*
letteral (proposed oorth= ography: =E1=8F=84 (unicode 13c4)), used as an implicit prosumti for most r= ecent sumti starting with the word nu

kabu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as = an implicit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka
<= div>
du'ubu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthography=E4= =BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an implicit prosumti for must recent sumti = starting with the word du'u

    &nbs= p; --gejyspa


   

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gle= ki Arxokuna <glek= i.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nu= bu, du'ubu to jbovlaste or at least here?

2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mturn...@gmail.com>:

    A subject that comes up from time to tim= e is ambiguity with implicit BY prosumti, especially when they interact wit= h abstractors.  Now, according to CLL 7.5.8:
&nb= sp;        The main difference between letter pro-= sumti and ko'a-series pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assi= gnment, letters are taken to refer to the most recent name or description s= umti beginning with the same letter
  
   And similarly in 17.9.2:
  If no a= ssignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a single lerfu = word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti whose name or= description begins in Lojban with that lerfu
   = ; That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to time ab= out what letter to use for an abstraction sumti.  Some suggest countin= g the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest using the fi= rst letter of the internal bridi.  This poses two problems.  Firs= t, consider the following:

 la normyn prami l= o nu limna i la dorys nelci ny

  Does Doris l= ike Norman, or does she like swimming?  It depends on which one of the= above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has the unenviab= le problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for events and pr= operties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain vanilla sumti (at = least for implicit assignment).)

  The second= problem is what do you do with an example like this:

<= div>   la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna   &n= bsp;    ?

  The first camp would ha= ve no problem talking about the abstraction sumti with an implicit BY "It's= ny," they declare.  But what would the second camp call it?  The= y can't use ny, that's Norman to them.  They can't use "ry", that's Ro= ver himself.  "ly"?  Maybe, but it seems a stretch.  They wo= uld pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se go'i= /go'e/go'a, or the like/


  Pro= posed solution:

  New symbols, nubu, kabu (an= d the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, and can refer ONLY  to the = abstraction.  "But if they are a letter/symbol, what do they look like= ?" you ask.   That's the beauty of lojban.  It doesn't matter, &n= bsp;Because we are talking here only about using them as evaluatable symbol= s, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do.

&nbs= p; This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would ma= ke discourse clearer and cleaner.  

  &n= bsp;  What do people think?

    &nb= sp;              --gejyspa

=

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