Received: from mail-oa0-f57.google.com ([209.85.219.57]:54561) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XURBv-0006kZ-ME for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:11:28 -0700 Received: by mail-oa0-f57.google.com with SMTP id m19sf47368oag.2 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:11:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2hXaZKdyB3kI0yZbPvZuTpbsXDSNHS0tSBzRsTObmNU=; b=hdlb+egG+Lh9NmcslnGY9rfAMEu3ybzO/Di0fasIuU982VFdp4gZdqYen453i8WvEI /rLnxtkaFIjbNIPiq6vXS78T8BhjyLF5LfaMB3BVq9qk1OEcjKcwbSkq4dMED/cYWNrj bn3O5Mo5gNbrUuNVp/RB1EeZSkj1S8pvY+8k4HK6EZPxQKkQNS1Uj2awiYo8bId2rcc/ v4k4/RRqu9bsITBaI0Qpxr1Gcyrw3ZKIcNs06EMIl4RN52qgafDxScXDfq81mayLWsT9 Yt0R0PfZ4QBtHrSuTecFK8r6bd8Y8NTOaGB/0ksrh1klpFINLU7s16yzMnePiRZjss7Z 3FQA== X-Received: by 10.50.119.7 with SMTP id kq7mr212686igb.12.1411006281309; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:11:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.61.142 with SMTP id p14ls1030872igr.23.gmail; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:11:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.177.108 with SMTP id cp12mr1369772pac.14.1411006280854; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x22d.google.com (mail-qa0-x22d.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ld1si2871538qcb.3.2014.09.17.19.11.20 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22d; Received: by mail-qa0-f45.google.com with SMTP id s7so279281qap.18 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:11:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.88.137 with SMTP id a9mr2940870qam.88.1411006280600; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.201.74 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 19:11:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:11:20 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2bbc021960a05034d8013 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c2bbc021960a05034d8013 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh, sorry, I DID mean to mention in the definition of du'u bu that it is for either du'u or se du'u --gejyspa On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 9:03 PM, la durka wrote: > I like this proposal a lot. It couldn't hurt to add these to jbovlaste. > > The only problem is if you've used a {se du'u} or {se li'i} etc. To make = a > NU-anaphora in that case you would have to do something gross like {lo'u = se > du'u le'u bu}. Or you could just use {du'ubu} anyway if it's not ambiguou= s. > > mu'o mi'e la durka > > El mi=C3=A9rcoles, 17 de septiembre de 2014 09:32:40 UTC-4, gejyspa escri= bi=C3=B3: >> >> Do we really need to? I mean, vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in >> jbovlaste, and those are all in the CLL. I am not adding any new >> functionality to the language. >> >> nubu: BY* >> letteral (proposed oorthography: =E1=8F=84 (unicode 13c4)), used as an i= mplicit >> prosumti for most recent sumti starting with the word nu >> >> kabu: BY* >> letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an im= plicit >> prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka >> >> du'ubu: BY* >> letteral ( proposed orthography=E4=BA=B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an imp= licit >> prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word du'u >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna >> wrote: >> >>> Michael, will you please write down definitions of kabu, nubu, du'ubu t= o >>> jbovlaste or at least here? >>> >>> 2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with >>>> implicit BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors. = Now, >>>> according to CLL 7.5.8: >>>> >>>>> The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series >>>>> pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters = are >>>>> taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning= with >>>>> the same letter >>>> >>>> >>>> And similarly in 17.9.2: >>>> >>>>> If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a >>>>> single lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sum= ti >>>>> whose name or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu >>>> >>>> That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to >>>> time about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti. Some suggest >>>> counting the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest = using >>>> the first letter of the internal bridi. This poses two problems. Fir= st, >>>> consider the following: >>>> >>>> la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny >>>> >>>> Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming? It depends on >>>> which one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach = also >>>> has the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" u= sed >>>> for events and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for pl= ain >>>> vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).) >>>> >>>> The second problem is what do you do with an example like this: >>>> >>>> la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna ? >>>> >>>> The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction >>>> sumti with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare. But what would the >>>> second camp call it? They can't use ny, that's Norman to them. They = can't >>>> use "ry", that's Rover himself. "ly"? Maybe, but it seems a stretch. >>>> They would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/r= a/ru, >>>> se go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Proposed solution: >>>> >>>> New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer= , >>>> and can refer ONLY to the abstraction. "But if they are a letter/sym= bol, >>>> what do they look like?" you ask. That's the beauty of lojban. It >>>> doesn't matter, Because we are talking here only about using them as >>>> evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do. >>>> >>>> This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think woul= d >>>> make discourse clearer and cleaner. >>>> >>>> What do people think? >>>> >>>> --gejyspa >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c2bbc021960a05034d8013 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Oh, sorry, I DID mean to mention in the definition = of du'u bu that it is for either du'u or se du'u
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa


On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 9:03 PM, la dur= ka <durka42@gmail.com> wrote:
I like this proposal a lot. It couldn't hurt to ad= d these to jbovlaste.

The only problem is if you've used a {se d= u'u} or {se li'i} etc. To make a NU-anaphora in that case you would= have to do something gross like {lo'u se du'u le'u bu}. Or you= could just use {du'ubu} anyway if it's not ambiguous.

mu= 9;o mi'e la durka

El mi=C3=A9rcoles, 17 de septiembre de 2014 09= :32:40 UTC-4, gejyspa escribi=C3=B3:
=C2=A0 Do we really need to? =C2=A0I mea= n, =C2=A0vy bu, ky bu, and y'y bu aren't in jbovlaste, and those ar= e all in the CLL. =C2=A0 I am not adding any new functionality to the langu= age.

nubu: BY*
letteral (proposed oorthography= : =E1=8F=84 (unicode 13c4)), used as an implicit prosumti for most recent s= umti starting with the word nu

kabu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthography =E0=A4=95 (unicode 0915)), used as an impl= icit prosumti for must recent sumti starting with the word ka
du'ubu: BY*
letteral ( proposed orthography=E4=BA= =B6 (unicode 4eb6)), used as an implicit prosumti for must recent sumti sta= rting with the word du'u

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 --gejyspa


=C2=A0 =C2=A0

On Wed, Sep= 17, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@g= mail.com> wrote:
Michael, will you please write down definiti= ons of kabu, nubu, du'ubu to jbovlaste or at least here?

2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael = Turniansky <mturn...@gmail.com>:
<= /span>


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A subject that comes up from ti= me to time is ambiguity with implicit BY prosumti, especially when they int= eract with abstractors. =C2=A0Now, according to CLL 7.5.8:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0The main difference between le= tter pro-sumti and ko'a-series pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an = explicit assignment, letters are taken to refer to the most recent name or = description sumti beginning with the same letter
=C2=A0=C2= =A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0And similarly in 17.9.2:
= =C2=A0 If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a si= ngle lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti = whose name or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That's all very well and good, but questions come up fr= om time to time about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti. =C2=A0So= me suggest counting the NU that marks the start of the structure, others su= ggest using the first letter of the internal bridi. =C2=A0This poses two pr= oblems. =C2=A0First, consider the following:

=C2= =A0la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny

=C2=A0 Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming? =C2=A0It depends= on which one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach a= lso has the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" a= nd "ky" used for events and properties, and their concomitant una= vailability for plain vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).)

=C2=A0 The second problem is what do you do with an = example like this:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0la normyn nelci lo= nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0?

<= /div>
=C2=A0 The first camp would have no problem talking about the abs= traction sumti with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare. = =C2=A0But what would the second camp call it? =C2=A0They can't use ny, = that's Norman to them. =C2=A0They can't use "ry", that= 9;s Rover himself. =C2=A0"ly"? =C2=A0Maybe, but it seems a stretc= h. =C2=A0They would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, r= i/ra/ru, se go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/


=C2=A0 Proposed solution:

=C2=A0= New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, and = can refer ONLY =C2=A0to the abstraction. =C2=A0"But if they are a lett= er/symbol, what do they look like?" you ask. =C2=A0 That's the bea= uty of lojban. =C2=A0It doesn't matter, =C2=A0Because we are talking he= re only about using them as evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which a= ny lerfu can do.

=C2=A0 This breaks absolutely non= e of the current grammar, but I think would make discourse clearer and clea= ner. =C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What do people thi= nk?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa
<= br>

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