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[216.109.115.69]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ld1si3383170qcb.3.2014.09.18.12.20.26 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.69 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.69; Received: from [66.196.81.157] by nm17.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Sep 2014 19:20:26 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.134] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Sep 2014 19:20:26 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1010.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Sep 2014 19:20:26 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 311383.62614.bm@omp1010.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 55693 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Sep 2014 19:20:25 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: GXw5EfgVM1n8rqKmtMBXeWfNgd0a_TO76W2VRpI4w.N9OJx 6R7ACYXTxoKuIYGIbKhPW7gN7UimE.x2hmm1nQUyxEFma5ZvQXYPFqY697jF yblPds7ytrRb92fy9hV2A7ulj5hpEskAPwR62w8wofqIQiw0N4VE1QfGmSv0 ZlphunuKPoSABL7aCHIds.qlL06wwP1TPkcbaZaeSXLH.VGHWjdVKhH86OHY glDyM9UrhrAqqlJkhyvnBPUcQ4ZZTzO.6TITXoo27n84HNgnMFJ6tuEJ127G odMA8bwbBLiNfVchEdu5x0turC90y4KDbh_aAlgMYao6mZc8fcJy1Dd1NoV. OB7QB0lhEXuEQ_Weqvisfha_rxX.USG0_oK2neqwaC9SYgYyjT12Dcbd9nRV 3JAIutmXsI8vNzDjHdxz9eBPz9AfnsF4ycsvV8xKTNupBLpboEChwgRyQ28J eH7_eveSpFxSRDrHvdenA.xMmk3n5.y0J9e78RKcertKQEoxGp59QgSI7KLW lA6MMyg87F2PHMxQBFAGHT6.bf9X4osF3EMM5t_82LpyKtLCkhVomL_2EEil j9d3FSWkkwTsyZgKaVCO_fukRQ2ZhkHv7_iCqO6XU5wYrfVaSwL8t_dfQx7r XzGHdofzI25xqBT685thzDn7buoWA6FWByKYReqcptlAvHHY9vF.t891D8uL BRJofua.SL.1UCxPqxv7vshXla8OOHvqTjksVMxS5gDc- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:20:25 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,SQpyZWFsbHkgbGlrZWQgdGhpcyB0cmFuc2xhdGlvbiwgYnV0IHRoZSB1cmdlIHRvIHR3ZWFrIChhbmQgdG8gcHJlYWNoKQphcmUgZXNzZW50aWFsIHBhcnRzIG9mIGEgbG9naWNpYW4ncyBjaGFyYWN0ZXIsIHNvIHdpdGggZHVlIGFwb2xvZ2llcwp0byBzZWxwYSdpIGZvciBtZXNzaW5nIHdpdGggYSBnb29kIGpvYjoKCgoKIG5pJ28KwqtsdSgxLDIpIGxvIHNlbHNhJ2EgY3UgY2xhbmkg4oCUc2VpIGxhIHhpcnNvaSBjdSBjdXNrdeKAlCBnaSdlIGt1J2kKYmEnZSBtdXRjZSBsbwprYSBtZWxiaSAuaSBybyBkYSABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5415B8C0.4030003@gmx.de> <5416B55B.9030302@gmx.de> <1410795457.2611.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1411068025.36488.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:20:25 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] The White Knight (Through the Looking Glass) To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <1410795457.2611.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.69 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-482694697-884471745-1411068025=:36488" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ---482694697-884471745-1411068025=:36488 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I really liked this translation, but the urge to tweak (and to preach) are essential parts of a logician's character, so with due apologies to selpa'i for messing with a good job: ni'o =C2=ABlu(1,2) lo selsa'a cu clani =E2=80=94sei la xirsoi cu cusku=E2=80=94 = gi'e ku'i ba'e mutce lo ka melbi .i ro da poi tirna lo nu mi sanga sy zo'u go nai da ba'e klaku gi =E2=80=A6 li'u=C2=BB ni'o =C2=ABlu go nai klaku gi mo li'u=C2=BB (3)nu cusku la .alis. mu'i l= o nu la xirsoi pu suksa de'a tavla. (4)=20 ni'o =C2=ABlu go nai klaku gi na klaku li'a .i lo cmene be lo selsa'a cu t= e valpli (5)=C2=ABlo'u (6) lo kanla be lo xekli'ifi'e le'u=C2=BBli'u=C2=BB ni'o =C2=ABlu ua .i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu li'u=C2=BB(3) nu cusku la .a= lis. /be fau lo nu .abu troci lo ka se cinri /(7) ni'o =C2=ABlu na go'i .i do na jimpe =E2=80=94sei la xirsoi /[be?]fau lo = nu simlu lo ka se fanza milxe/(8) cu cusku=E2=80=94 .i ra (9) ba'e sevalpli= (5) fi lo cmene .i lo cmene cu ba'e du =C2=ABlo'u (6) lo laldo laldo nanmu= le'u=C2=BB li'u=C2=BB ni'o =C2=ABlu va'o ku .ei mi pu cusku =C2=ABlu xu ri se valpli fi lo ba'e = selsa'a i'u=C2=BB =E2=80=94sei la .alis. cu sevzi dragau=E2=80=94 li'u=C2= =BB (10) ni'o =C2=ABlu ie nai .i .ei na go'i .i [di'u?] frica mutce .i lo ba'e sels= a'a cu te valpli =C2=ABlo'u lo tamsmi jo'u lo tadji le'u=C2=BB(11) .i ku'i = ri fi sy ba'e te valpli po'o .i xu do jimpe li'u=C2=BB ni'o =C2=ABlu .y va'o ku ma ba'e du lo selsa'a =E2=80=94/sei la .alis. noi= ca mulno lo ka se cfipu cu cusku/=E2=80=94 li'u=C2=BB ni'o =C2=ABlu mi pu pu'o casnu la'e di'u =E2=80=94sei la xirsoi cu cusku=E2= =80=94 .i lo selsa'a cu ba'e du je'u la (12) .lo nu ca'o zutse lo vrogai. = li'u=C2=BB .i je lo sagzgi(13) cu se finti lo sevzi be mi li'u=C2=BB 1. Logician's have an array of separate items that are usually covered by = quotation marks. Logjam has had most of these at one time or another (I pu= t a lot of them in myself). Here are just the basic oratio recta uses. Se= lpa'i uses =E2=80=9CEuropean=E2=80=9D quotes (those quotes are quotes marki= ng an expression as so-called, not necessarily the right technical word for= the referent =E2=80=93 but not scare quotes to mark irony, etc. either). I= n addition to those mentioned in passing logicians also have =E2=80=93 sign= ificantly here =E2=80=93 metaquotes (to form the names of expressions, so t= hat the expressions can be mentioned) and title quotes (to set off the titl= e of a work, its name that might be taken as a different kind of expression= ). Lojban has several quotation expressions but on different principles: pa= rsible Lojban expressions, random Lojban expressions, Lojban words and no= n-Lojban, which are treated differently by the parser.=20 2. I am not sure about the justification for using both the Lojban words f= or =E2=80=9Cquote=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cunquote=E2=80=9D and also the quota= tion marks. I assume it is meant to ease the readers' eyes =E2=80=93 but t= hen whey not put counter quotes in around the {sei} phrases, which are outs= ide the oratio but within the Lojban quotation phrases. (Braces here are me= taquotes to form the names of expressions in Lojban.) 3. Quote moved to conform to the original and the sense =E2=80=93 the earl= ier {sei} closed the direct quote. 4. Original had {lo xirsoi} as subject of {suksa}, a process place. This = revision is more compact =E2=80=93 but I'm not sure that {de'a} can go betw= een {suksa} and {tavla}. {suksasisti lo nu tavla} is safer. 5. Not distinguishing between the name of something and what it is called = misses half the fun of this (if not the joke). Finding the right word for = =E2=80=9Ccall=E2=80=9D is a problem, since the order of object and word are= the reverse of the normal for word words: =E2=80=9Cx (agent) calls y (obje= ct) z (word),=E2=80=9D but =E2=80=9Cz is the name of/ word for y=E2=80=9D T= he compound here, of {pilno} and {valsi} is =E2=80=9Cp1 uses v1=3D p2 to re= fer to v2(=3Dv3?)=E2=80=9D. The {se} version with {fi} object give one sta= ndard form, the {te} gives =E2=80=9Cis called=E2=80=9D simply (as wanted he= re). {valsi} is used rather than {cmene} to stress the difference and also= to allow that =E2=80=9Ccall=E2=80=9D is used for replacements for other th= an names. {pilno} stress the unofficial and temporary nature of calling = =E2=80=93 and also is a relief from overworked {gau}. 6. This is iffy. The phrase enclosed is grammatical Lojban but it is not = being used to refer to itself in the usual quotation way but to refer to it= self used as the title of a piece (well, strictly the name of a title, but = =E2=80=A6). So it seems more like metaquote, for we are talking about what= it names, not merely displaying it. But it is easily arguable that regula= r quotes are talking about what they name, namely that they are being said.= Still, there is something different here and a logical language ought to = notice it. 7. I don't get the section inside stars (which somehow morphed into boldfa= ce). I would have said just {noi troci le ka se cinri}. 8. Again, I don't quite get it (not sure just how {fau} works for starters= ) , but {noi simlu lo ka milxe se fanza} works, too.=20 9. An anaphora that gives a logician the willies, since there are several = =E2=80=9Crecent=E2=80=9D sumti. Maybe a {lo'u bu} is called for here, or = at least {ky}. 10. I have the familiar worries about this but don't see how to get the qu= ote connected to {serzi dragau} directly (it needs a =E2=80=9Cby doing/ say= ing=E2=80=9D). 11. Nothing gets this quite right that I can see (partly because I is not = clear wtf it means) but {lo tadji jo'u lo tutci} seem a shade better. 12. Here we want to refer directly to the song. So we use its proper name,= despite the convention that puts that in quotes again (title quotes =E2=80= =93 which confused some logicians into saying the knight got it wrong in th= e end.) 13. This is given at {sanga} as the word for =E2=80=9Cmelody=E2=80=9D (sor= ta the same as =E2=80=9Ctune=E2=80=9D?) but then doesn't have a jbovlaste e= ntry =E2=80=93 and is a bitch to say. {sa'azgi} is better but still iffy. On Monday, September 15, 2014 10:37 AM, John E Clifford wrote: =20 Logician's love this passage for all the interplay of use and mention that = it involves. The added complication of the difference between what a thing= is called and what its name is is just thrown in for free (I think -- Dodg= son may have had another agenda there that I don't know about). I haven't = checked to see that the quotes are all in the right place (the usual logici= ans' worry), except to note that he Knight gets it wrong in the end, since = the song *is* "I'll tell you everything I can, .... A-sitting on a gate." o= r, at the very least, A-sitting On A Gate, but certainly not "A-sitting of = a gate." (which is, after all, only the/a name of the song) (but does Lojba= n still have title quotes?). On Monday, September 15, 2014 7:56 AM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: =20 On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 6:46 AM, selpa'i wrote: > Right. I think I first had {... go nai klaku gi co'e li'u}, but while tha= t maintains grammaticality it doesn't really correspond to being interrupte= d mid-speech (or just stopping etc). Just like you I don't know what the be= st general solution would be; I feel like there should be a way to have an = ungrammatical chunk inside grammatical text without making the entire text = parsefail. I don't know how one would parse human speech otherwise, which i= s going to be full of incomplete sentences.=20 Right, human speech is obviously not parsed as a single chunk. The Lojban p= arser is somewhat unnatural in that sense. =20 One thing that could help is to add a lot more productions to the fragment = rule of the grammar. Another solution I pondered involved giving EOF some m= agic powers so that it can make incomplete sentences parse up to the failur= e part and just treat the remainder as some sort of meaningless left-over. = What's important is that the grammatical part of such a sentence still gets= parsed properly. > It wouldn't be EOF though, because we still want to keep parsing what comes= after the incomplete sentence. The PEG can be modified so as to allow inco= mplete sentences, but it means adding a lot of rules.=20 I'm not sure about the equally likely case where the mistake happens in the= middle of a sentence. Perhaps an external statistical analyser would have = to guess what was meant and make corrections accordingly... > I would say mistakes are different from interruptions, so they probably req= uire different treatments. lo'u-le'u doesn't satisfy me, because 1) it requires you to know in advance= that a sentence or text will be ungrammatical (and it's an ugly give-away = in a written story), and 2) because text in error quotes does not get parse= d, so there is no way to extract meaning from what is said. Right. The second comment is about "ba'e" in: >> >>-.i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu >>- na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra ba'e cmene lo cmene >> >>Assuming the emphasis marks the rheme/comment as opposed to the >>theme/topic, I would expect the "ba'e" on the second cmene. The first >>cmene just repeats Alice's sentence, so it's not what the White Knight >>is correcting. I understand the sentence structure is somewhat different >>in Lojban than in the original, but the "ba'e" there just sounds off to m= e. >> >I know exactly what you mean. When I read the Lojban I had the same feelin= g, so I went over to the English and found that it was "backwards" as well.= {ba'e} on the second {cmene} definitely feels better, I just wasn't sure i= f I should make a "correction" to the original or if it fit the general wei= rdness in Alice. I don't think the original has the same problem, because in the English you= have "the name" and "is called", and the White Knight's "the name" does re= peat Alice's "the name", and "is called" is the new information. The proble= m with the Lojban is that there's two "cmene", and the one that is new info= rmation comes first and in the same position as Alice's "cmene". If it was = a different word, say: -.i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu - na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra ba'e sinxa lo cmene or: -.i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu - na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra lo cmene cu ba'e sinxa then it would be easier to follow, because it would be more clear that "lo = cmene" is "lo cmene be lo selsa'a". (I'm not saying it would be a better tr= anslation though.) Also the way you have "xu" questioning "lo selsa'a" may add to the garden-p= athing. I think "vau xu" would correspond more closely to the original.=20 mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---482694697-884471745-1411068025=:36488 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I really liked this translation, but the urge to tweak (and to preach) are essential parts of a logician's character, so with due apologies to selpa'i for messing with a good job:



ni'o =C2=ABlu(1,2) lo selsa'a cu clani =E2=80=94sei la xirsoi cu cusku=E2=80=94 = gi'e ku'i ba'e mutce&n= bsp;lo ka melbi .i ro da poi tirna lo nu mi sanga sy zo'u go nai da ba'e klaku gi =E2=80=A6 li'u=C2=BB
<= br class=3D"" style=3D"">

<= /font>
ni'o =C2=ABlu go nai klaku gi mo li'u=C2=BB  (3)nu cusku la .alis. mu'i l= o nu la xirsoi pu suksa de'a tavla. (4)


ni'o =C2=ABlu go nai klaku gi na klaku li'a .i lo cmene be lo selsa'a cu te valpli (5)=C2=ABlo'u (6) lo kanla be lo xekli'ifi'e le'u=C2=BBli'u=C2=BB


ni'o =C2=ABlu ua .i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu li'u=C2=BB(3) nu cusku la .alis. /be fau lo nu .abu troci lo ka se cinri /(7)

ni'o =C2=ABlu na go'i .i do na jimpe =E2=80=94sei la xirsoi /[be?]fau lo nu si= mlu lo ka se fanza milxe/(8) cu cusku=E2=80=94 .i ra (9) ba'e se valpli (5) fi lo cmene .i lo cmene cu ba'e du =C2=ABlo'u (6) lo laldo laldo nanmu le'u=C2=BB li'u=C2=BB


ni'o =C2=ABlu va'o ku .ei mi pu cusku =C2=ABlu xu ri se valpli fi lo ba'e = selsa'a i'u=C2=BB =E2=80=94sei la .alis. cu sevzi dragau=E2=80=94 li'u=C2=BB (10)<= /font>


ni'o =C2=ABlu ie nai .i .ei na go'i .i [di'u?] frica mutce .i lo ba'e selsa'a cu te valpli =C2=ABlo'u lo tamsmi jo'u lo tadji le'u=C2=BB(11) .i ku'i ri fi = sy ba'e te valpli po'o .i xu do jimpe li'u=C2=BB
<= /font>

ni'o =C2=ABlu .y va'o ku ma ba'e du lo selsa'a =E2=80=94/sei la .alis. noi ca mulno lo ka se cfipu cu cusku/=E2= =80=94 li'u=C2=BB


ni'o =C2=ABlu mi pu pu'o casnu la'e di'u =E2=80=94sei la xirsoi cu cusku=E2=80= =94 .i lo selsa'a cu ba'e du je'u la (12) .lo= nu ca'o zutse lo vrogai. li'u=C2=BB .i je lo sagzgi(13) cu se finti lo sevzi be mi li'u=C2=BB

  1. Log= ician's have an array of separate items that are usually covered by quotation marks. Logjam has had most of these at one time or another (I put a lot of them in myself). Here are just the basic oratio recta uses. Selpa'i uses =E2=80=9CEuropean=E2=80=9D quotes (those quotes are quotes marking an expr= ession as so-called, not necessarily the right technical word for the referent =E2=80=93 but not scare quotes to mark irony, etc. either). In addition to those mentioned in passing logicians also have =E2=80=93 significantly here =E2=80=93 metaquotes (to form the names of expressions, so that the expressions can be mentioned) and title quotes (to set off the title of a work, its name that might be taken as a different kind of expression). Lojban has several quotation expressions but on different principles: parsible Lojban expressions, random Lojban expressions, Lojban words and non-Lojban, which are treated differently by the parser.=20
  2. I am not sure about the justification for using both the Lojban words for =E2=80=9Cquote=E2=80=9D = and =E2=80=9Cunquote=E2=80=9D and also the quotation marks. I assume it is me= ant to ease the readers' eyes =E2=80=93 but then whey not put counter quotes in around the {sei} phrases, which are outside the oratio but within the Lojban quotation phrases. (Braces here are metaquotes to form the names of expressions in Lojban.)
  3. Quote moved to conform to the original and the sense =E2=80=93 the earlier {sei} closed the direct quote.
  4. Original had {lo xirsoi} as subject of {suksa}, a process place. This revision is more compact =E2=80=93 but I'm not sure that {de'a} can go between {suksa} and {tavla}. {suksasisti lo nu tavla} is safer.
  5. Not distinguishing between the name of something and what it is called misses half the fun of this (if not the joke). Finding the right word for =E2=80=9Ccall=E2=80=9D is a problem, since the order of object and word are the reverse of the normal for word words: =E2=80=9Cx (agent) calls y (object) z (word),=E2=80= =9D but =E2=80=9Cz is the name of/ word for y=E2=80=9D The compound here, of {= pilno} and {valsi} is =E2=80=9Cp1 uses v1=3D p2 to refer to v2(=3Dv3?)=E2=80=9D. = The {se} version with {fi} object give one standard form, the {te} gives =E2=80=9Ci= s called=E2=80=9D simply (as wanted here). {valsi} is used rather than {cmene} to stress the difference and also to allow that =E2=80=9Ccall=E2= =80=9D is used for replacements for other than names. {pilno} stress the unofficial and temporary nature of calling =E2=80=93 and also is a relief from overworked {gau}.
  6. This is iffy. The phrase enclosed is grammatical Lojban but it is not being used to refer to itself in the usual quotation way but to refer to itself used as the title of a piece (well, strictly the name of a title, but =E2=80=A6). So it seems more like metaquote, for we are talking about what it names, not merely displaying it. But it is easily arguable that regular quotes are talking about what they name, namely that they are being said.=20 Still, there is something different here and a logical language ought to notice it.
  7. I don't get the section inside stars (which somehow morphed into boldface). I would have said just {noi troci le ka se cinri}.
  8. Again, I don't quite get it (not sure just how {fau} works for starters) , but {noi simlu lo ka milxe se fanza} works, too. =20
  9. An anaphora that gives a logician the willies, since there are several =E2=80=9Crecent=E2=80=9D sumti. Mayb= e a {lo'u bu} is called for here, or at least {ky}.
  10. I have the familiar worries about this but don't see how to get the quote connected to {serzi dragau} directly (it needs a =E2=80=9Cby doing/ saying=E2=80=9D).
  11. Nothing gets this quite right that I can see (partly because I is not clear wtf it means) but {lo tadji jo'u lo tutci} seem a shade better.
  12. Here we want to refer directly to the song. So we use its proper name, despite the convention that puts that in quotes again (title quotes =E2=80=93 which confused some logicians into saying the knight got it wrong in the end.)
  13. This is given at {sanga} as the word for =E2=80=9Cmelody=E2=80=9D (sorta the same as =E2=80=9Ctune=E2=80= =9D?) but then doesn't have a jbovlaste entry =E2=80=93 and is a bitch to say. {sa'azgi} is better but still iffy.


=
On Monday, September 15, 2014 10:37 AM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

Logician's love this passage for all the interplay of use and mention that it involves.  The added complication of the diff= erence between what a thing is called and what its name is is just thrown i= n for free (I think -- Dodgson may have had another agenda there that I don= 't know about).  I haven't checked to see that the quotes are all in t= he right place (the usual logicians' worry), except to note that he Knight = gets it wrong in the end, since the song *is* "I'll tell you everything I c= an, .... A-sitting on a gate." or, at the very least, A-sitting On A Gate, = but certainly not "A-sitting of a gate." (which is, after all, only the/a n= ame of the song) (but does Lojban still have title quotes?).


On Monday, September 1= 5, 2014 7:56 AM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:



On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 6:46 AM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de><= /span> wrote:

 Right. I think I first had {... go nai klaku gi co'e li'u}, but while that = maintains grammaticality it doesn't really correspond to being interrupted = mid-speech (or just stopping etc). Just like you I don't know what the best= general solution would be; I feel like there should be a way to have an un= grammatical chunk inside grammatical text without making the entire text pa= rsefail. I don't know how one would parse human speech otherwise, which is = going to be full of incomplete sentences.

Right, human speech is obviously not parsed as a single chunk. The Lo= jban parser is somewhat unnatural in that sense.
 
One thing that could help is to add a lot more pro= ductions to the fragment rule of the grammar. Another solution I pondered involved giving EOF some magic powers so that it can make incom= plete sentences parse up to the failure part and just treat the remainder a= s some sort of meaningless left-over. What's important is that the grammati= cal part of such a sentence still gets parsed properly.

It wouldn't be = EOF though, because we still want to keep parsing what comes after the inco= mplete sentence. The PEG can be modified so as to allow incomplete sentence= s, but it means adding a lot of rules. 

I'm not sure about the equally likely case where the mistake happens in the= middle of a sentence. Perhaps an external statistical analyser would have = to guess what was meant and make corrections accordingly...

I would sa= y mistakes are different from interruptions, so they probably require diffe= rent treatments.

lo'u-le'u doesn't satisfy me, because 1) it requires you to know in advance= that a sentence or text will be ungrammatical (and it's an ugly give-away = in a written story), and 2) because text in error quotes does not get parse= d, so there is no way to extract meaning from what is said.

Right.

The second comment is about "ba'e" in:

-.i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu
- na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra ba'e cmene lo cmene

Assuming the emphasis marks the rheme/comment as opposed to the
theme/topic, I would expect the "ba'e" on the second cmene. The first
cmene just repeats Alice's sentence, so it's not what the White Knight
is correcting. I understand the sentence structure is somewhat different in Lojban than in the original, but the "ba'e" there just sounds off to me.=

I know exactly what you mean. When I read the Lojban I had the same feeling= , so I went over to the English and found that it was "backwards" as well. = {ba'e} on the second {cmene} definitely feels better, I just wasn't sure if= I should make a "correction" to the original or if it fit the general weir= dness in Alice.

I don't think the ori= ginal has the same problem, because in the English you have "the name" and = "is called", and the White Knight's "the name" does repeat Alice's "the nam= e", and "is called" is the new information. The problem with the Lojban is = that there's two "cmene", and the one that is new information comes first a= nd in the same position as Alice's "cmene". If it was a different word, say= :

=
-.i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu
- na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra ba'e sinxa lo cmene

or:

-.i ri cmene lo selsa'a ku xu
- na go'i .i do na jimpe .i ra lo cmene cu ba'e sinxa

then it= would be easier to follow, because it would be more clear that "lo cmene" = is "lo cmene be lo selsa'a". (I'm not saying it would be a better translati= on though.)

Also the way you have "xu" quest= ioning "lo selsa'a" may add to the garden-pathing. I think "vau xu" would c= orrespond more closely to the original. 

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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