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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 20:31:36 +0200
From: "'Wuzzy' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: [lojban] The important distinction between "cmene" and "cmevla"
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Hi. This e-mail is a bit of an essay. It is about names and =E2=80=9Cname
words=E2=80=9D. It is a long essay because I want to make sure it gets
understood no matter what. I write this in English because it is also
aimed at newbies.

Many of you may already have heard of the word =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D. Ho=
wever, I
have noticed that some of you still haven=E2=80=99t grasped the meaning of =
it
and under what motivation some people, including me, use it. So I write
this essay to help you understand and I think the distinction of
=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D vs. =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D is quite important.

Let=E2=80=99s start with =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D.
Here=E2=80=99s the definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cx1 (quot=
ed word(s)) is a/the
name/title/tag of x2 to/used-by namer/name-user x3 (person)=E2=80=9D

So as I understand this definition, x1 can only fit into the predicate
word =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D if the quoted word(s) are actually the name of=
 something.

=E2=80=9Czo trolololololololololol cmene=E2=80=9D may be false, iff there i=
s actually
nothing with this strange name.

But most important, =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D is all about the name of someth=
ing. It does
*not* make an assertion about morphology.

Consider these lojbanic statements:
 * =E2=80=9Czo lojban cmene la lojban=E2=80=9D
 * =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene la gleki=E2=80=9D
 * =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li'u cmene la donald dak

These should be obviously true, but of course only if there are
actually things called =E2=80=9Clojban=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cgleki=E2=80=9D or=
 =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D. For our
purposes, I assume that this is the case. The translation is always
something along the lines of =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98Foobar=E2=80=99 is the name =
of
Foobar.=E2=80=9D (carefully look at the quotes).

But now consider this statement:
 * =E2=80=9Clu donald gustav li'u cmene la donald gustav li'u=E2=80=9D

Now let=E2=80=99s pretend there is actually nothing in the universe called
=E2=80=9Cdonald gustav=E2=80=9D. Then it is false. Yet =E2=80=9Cdonald gust=
av=E2=80=9D shares something
with =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D: The word =E2=80=9Cdonald=E2=80=9D. It is=
 interesting because it is
unlike words like =E2=80=9Cgismu=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Ccidjrpitsa=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cgerzda=E2=80=9D.

Which leads us to the so-called =E2=80=9Cname words=E2=80=9D, the =E2=80=9C=
cmevla=E2=80=9D.

The current definition of =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D is =E2=80=9Cx1 is a morp=
hologically defined
name word meaning x2 in language x3.=E2=80=9D. The notes say: =E2=80=9CIn L=
ojban, such
words are characterized by ending with a consonant. In Lojban, a cmevla
may only consist of a single word, whereas a cmene can consist of one
or multiple words, which may be cmevla. See also vlaturge'a.=E2=80=9D

Source: <http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/cmevla>

I think the current definition is really unlucky and probably hard to
understand. But luckily, the notes clear it up a bit. I think I grasped
it. But still, it should be probably reworded (=3Dsame meaning in
different words).

As I understand it, a cmevla is all about morphology. It it detached
from the concept of =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. In Lojban, a cmevla is a specia=
l kind of
word which ends in a consonant. But that is just one property of a
clevla. In fact, cmevla make their own word class (or =E2=80=9Cpart-of-spee=
ch=E2=80=9D
if you insist), along with gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla and cmavo. The CLL
chapter defines word classes in the morphology chapter, in the section
=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D (I come to that title later). If you read the secti=
on
carefully, it becomes clear that it talks about morphology most of the
time. If we use the CLL definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D in that chapt=
er for
=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D, then this is true:

 * =E2=80=9Czo djim cmevla=E2=80=9D
 * =E2=80=9Czo djein cmevla=E2=80=9D
 * =E2=80=9Czo arnold cmevla=E2=80=9D

But these aren=E2=80=99t:

 * =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li'u cmevla=E2=80=9D (false, it is not a single w=
ord)
 * =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmevla=E2=80=9D (Wrong word class. The word =E2=80=9Cg=
leki=E2=80=9D belongs to the
word class =E2=80=9Cgismu=E2=80=9D)

To say =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene=E2=80=9D is correct, but it just means =E2=
=80=9C=E2=80=98gleki=E2=80=99 is a
name.=E2=80=9D, but we wanted to say something else.

In short, a cmevla is a single word which falls under the rules of the
=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D chapter of the CLL. All brivla are not cmevla. Mult=
iple words
(like =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D) are no cmevla (but =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=
=E2=80=9D may be a cmene).

I am pretty sure that the CLL uses the word =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D incorre=
ctly. To
proof it, you have to see that the CLL distinguishes between these
basic word classes in Lojban:
 * cmavo
 * gismu
 * lujvo
 * fu'ivla
 * cmene

Now let=E2=80=99s look if this holds true by inserting a word of the
corresponding word class into the x1:

 * zo go cmavo
 * zo mabru gismu
 * zo gerzda lujvo
 * zo cidjrpitsa fu'ivla
 * zo pitr cmene

The first four ones should be acceptable without debate, the last one
is of interest here. Let=E2=80=99s see what the last one means by simply
inserting it in the definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D:

=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98pitr=E2=80=99 is a name of someone, given by some name-gi=
ver.=E2=80=9D
Or short:
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98pitr=E2=80=99 is a name.=E2=80=9D

It does not matter if this statement is actually true. But the problem
here is that this is not what we wanted to say. The CLL clearly talked
about a word class in the chapter called =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D.

Let=E2=80=99s try it again with =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D:
 * =E2=80=9Czo pitr cmevla=E2=80=9D
This simply means that =E2=80=9Cpitr=E2=80=9D is a member of a word class w=
e call
=E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D. Which *is* what we wanted to say.

When the CLL talks about a =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D is means actually a =E2=
=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D in most
of the cases. I think the reason why the CLL calls it =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=
=9D anyways
is simply that the word =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D didn=E2=80=99t exist when =
the CLL was written
and the authors were not really aware of the distinction. Also, there
is no real English translation for the concept behind =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=
=9D. I could
say =E2=80=9Cname word=E2=80=9D, but this lexeme would be created ad hoc an=
d is alien
to most English-speaking people. Which may also be the reason why the
wording in the current definition on Jbovlaste is kinda tricky at the
moment. I would be very glad if someone could suggest a better wording
(without changing the meaning, of course!). Someone also suggested to
change the word class =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D i=
n Jbovlaste:
<https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/59>


To summarize: Say =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D when you are talking about a wor=
d class, but
use =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D if you are talking about an actual name of some=
thing or
someone. If you talk about names, you may say this: =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene
   .ije zo selpa'i cmene
   .ije zo uuZIT cmene=E2=80=9D

But if you talk about word classes, you may say this:
  =E2=80=9Czo gleki gismu
   .ije zo selpa'i lujvo
   .ije zo uuZIT cmevla=E2=80=9D

But NOT this:
  =E2=80=9Czo gleki gismu
   .ije zo selpa'i lujvo
   .ije zo uuZIT cmene=E2=80=9D
The last sentence is not false, but it is not what you wanted to say!


So I hope you all understood this now. If you did, fine. If you didn=E2=80=
=99t,
write a follow-up and tell me what you did not understand.

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