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Subject: Re: [lojban] The important distinction between "cmene" and "cmevla"
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From: "'John E. Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 14:06:52 -0500
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Thanks!  There are many similar problems throughout the history of Logjam. =
 Each one cleared away is a good step.  Now for {sumti} or {bridi}.


Sent from my iPad

On Sep 20, 2014, at 13:31, "'Wuzzy' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com> w=
rote:

> Hi. This e-mail is a bit of an essay. It is about names and =E2=80=9Cname
> words=E2=80=9D. It is a long essay because I want to make sure it gets
> understood no matter what. I write this in English because it is also
> aimed at newbies.
>=20
> Many of you may already have heard of the word =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D. =
However, I
> have noticed that some of you still haven=E2=80=99t grasped the meaning o=
f it
> and under what motivation some people, including me, use it. So I write
> this essay to help you understand and I think the distinction of
> =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D vs. =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D is quite important.
>=20
> Let=E2=80=99s start with =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D.
> Here=E2=80=99s the definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cx1 (qu=
oted word(s)) is a/the
> name/title/tag of x2 to/used-by namer/name-user x3 (person)=E2=80=9D
>=20
> So as I understand this definition, x1 can only fit into the predicate
> word =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D if the quoted word(s) are actually the name =
of something.
>=20
> =E2=80=9Czo trolololololololololol cmene=E2=80=9D may be false, iff there=
 is actually
> nothing with this strange name.
>=20
> But most important, =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D is all about the name of some=
thing. It does
> *not* make an assertion about morphology.
>=20
> Consider these lojbanic statements:
> * =E2=80=9Czo lojban cmene la lojban=E2=80=9D
> * =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene la gleki=E2=80=9D
> * =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li'u cmene la donald dak
>=20
> These should be obviously true, but of course only if there are
> actually things called =E2=80=9Clojban=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cgleki=E2=80=9D =
or =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D. For our
> purposes, I assume that this is the case. The translation is always
> something along the lines of =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98Foobar=E2=80=99 is the nam=
e of
> Foobar.=E2=80=9D (carefully look at the quotes).
>=20
> But now consider this statement:
> * =E2=80=9Clu donald gustav li'u cmene la donald gustav li'u=E2=80=9D
>=20
> Now let=E2=80=99s pretend there is actually nothing in the universe calle=
d
> =E2=80=9Cdonald gustav=E2=80=9D. Then it is false. Yet =E2=80=9Cdonald gu=
stav=E2=80=9D shares something
> with =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D: The word =E2=80=9Cdonald=E2=80=9D. It =
is interesting because it is
> unlike words like =E2=80=9Cgismu=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Ccidjrpitsa=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cgerzda=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> Which leads us to the so-called =E2=80=9Cname words=E2=80=9D, the =E2=80=
=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> The current definition of =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D is =E2=80=9Cx1 is a mo=
rphologically defined
> name word meaning x2 in language x3.=E2=80=9D. The notes say: =E2=80=9CIn=
 Lojban, such
> words are characterized by ending with a consonant. In Lojban, a cmevla
> may only consist of a single word, whereas a cmene can consist of one
> or multiple words, which may be cmevla. See also vlaturge'a.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> Source: <http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/cmevla>
>=20
> I think the current definition is really unlucky and probably hard to
> understand. But luckily, the notes clear it up a bit. I think I grasped
> it. But still, it should be probably reworded (=3Dsame meaning in
> different words).
>=20
> As I understand it, a cmevla is all about morphology. It it detached
> from the concept of =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. In Lojban, a cmevla is a spec=
ial kind of
> word which ends in a consonant. But that is just one property of a
> clevla. In fact, cmevla make their own word class (or =E2=80=9Cpart-of-sp=
eech=E2=80=9D
> if you insist), along with gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla and cmavo. The CLL
> chapter defines word classes in the morphology chapter, in the section
> =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D (I come to that title later). If you read the sec=
tion
> carefully, it becomes clear that it talks about morphology most of the
> time. If we use the CLL definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D in that cha=
pter for
> =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D, then this is true:
>=20
> * =E2=80=9Czo djim cmevla=E2=80=9D
> * =E2=80=9Czo djein cmevla=E2=80=9D
> * =E2=80=9Czo arnold cmevla=E2=80=9D
>=20
> But these aren=E2=80=99t:
>=20
> * =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li'u cmevla=E2=80=9D (false, it is not a single =
word)
> * =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmevla=E2=80=9D (Wrong word class. The word =E2=80=9C=
gleki=E2=80=9D belongs to the
> word class =E2=80=9Cgismu=E2=80=9D)
>=20
> To say =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene=E2=80=9D is correct, but it just means =E2=
=80=9C=E2=80=98gleki=E2=80=99 is a
> name.=E2=80=9D, but we wanted to say something else.
>=20
> In short, a cmevla is a single word which falls under the rules of the
> =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D chapter of the CLL. All brivla are not cmevla. Mu=
ltiple words
> (like =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D) are no cmevla (but =E2=80=9Cdonald da=
k=E2=80=9D may be a cmene).
>=20
> I am pretty sure that the CLL uses the word =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D incor=
rectly. To
> proof it, you have to see that the CLL distinguishes between these
> basic word classes in Lojban:
> * cmavo
> * gismu
> * lujvo
> * fu'ivla
> * cmene
>=20
> Now let=E2=80=99s look if this holds true by inserting a word of the
> corresponding word class into the x1:
>=20
> * zo go cmavo
> * zo mabru gismu
> * zo gerzda lujvo
> * zo cidjrpitsa fu'ivla
> * zo pitr cmene
>=20
> The first four ones should be acceptable without debate, the last one
> is of interest here. Let=E2=80=99s see what the last one means by simply
> inserting it in the definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D:
>=20
> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98pitr=E2=80=99 is a name of someone, given by some name-=
giver.=E2=80=9D
> Or short:
> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98pitr=E2=80=99 is a name.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> It does not matter if this statement is actually true. But the problem
> here is that this is not what we wanted to say. The CLL clearly talked
> about a word class in the chapter called =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> Let=E2=80=99s try it again with =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D:
> * =E2=80=9Czo pitr cmevla=E2=80=9D
> This simply means that =E2=80=9Cpitr=E2=80=9D is a member of a word class=
 we call
> =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D. Which *is* what we wanted to say.
>=20
> When the CLL talks about a =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D is means actually a =
=E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D in most
> of the cases. I think the reason why the CLL calls it =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=
=80=9D anyways
> is simply that the word =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D didn=E2=80=99t exist whe=
n the CLL was written
> and the authors were not really aware of the distinction. Also, there
> is no real English translation for the concept behind =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=
=80=9D. I could
> say =E2=80=9Cname word=E2=80=9D, but this lexeme would be created ad hoc =
and is alien
> to most English-speaking people. Which may also be the reason why the
> wording in the current definition on Jbovlaste is kinda tricky at the
> moment. I would be very glad if someone could suggest a better wording
> (without changing the meaning, of course!). Someone also suggested to
> change the word class =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D=
 in Jbovlaste:
> <https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/59>
>=20
>=20
> To summarize: Say =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D when you are talking about a w=
ord class, but
> use =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D if you are talking about an actual name of so=
mething or
> someone. If you talk about names, you may say this: =E2=80=9Czo gleki cme=
ne
>   .ije zo selpa'i cmene
>   .ije zo uuZIT cmene=E2=80=9D
>=20
> But if you talk about word classes, you may say this:
>  =E2=80=9Czo gleki gismu
>   .ije zo selpa'i lujvo
>   .ije zo uuZIT cmevla=E2=80=9D
>=20
> But NOT this:
>  =E2=80=9Czo gleki gismu
>   .ije zo selpa'i lujvo
>   .ije zo uuZIT cmene=E2=80=9D
> The last sentence is not false, but it is not what you wanted to say!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> So I hope you all understood this now. If you did, fine. If you didn=E2=
=80=99t,
> write a follow-up and tell me what you did not understand.
>=20
> --=20
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