Received: from mail-oa0-f64.google.com ([209.85.219.64]:54144) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XVUL9-0002WA-KE for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:45:26 -0700 Received: by mail-oa0-f64.google.com with SMTP id jd19sf771959oac.9 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:45:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=AOLbcKY5/6DcSinrQPtbMqwbucAjpUTA4vKDw1U9UtI=; b=sOcbs22fBXMQDimr9Zu3fHcP9G4qparKCaR4/oFSDkC/FE84wgJTc7BRkuRcF/f5RN 3x9Py3X038ZEGQuHv7iZhRRlcfJlqyRukI+pnRuZCnxBJRumn1WTmR4T4WuS4kRPTp0q e2xRfmGTUBJmtAMyvjeuRsQNqh7XW3mumXlUVx2vR10BGX2NIa7LA7V79BDMmn3ISW0e xSaKS8b8QPWwjTpXxKP788xjZG2nJIK/hy2xYZ+VFBdOr9RBxGmWCHUN9dbJTPCg9FGH 7ccRZdY8BC3n4qSagVlaWVPDcfP4ka8xwy5E95Qn+JfUf96AWyLzobj9ytyBhm/PQXFD w8Zw== X-Received: by 10.51.17.104 with SMTP id gd8mr59745igd.7.1411256713035; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:45:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.93.99 with SMTP id ct3ls1165616igb.11.gmail; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:45:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.6.78 with SMTP id y14mr4840582igy.3.1411256712566; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x232.google.com (mail-qg0-x232.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c04::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t6si1113793qcd.0.2014.09.20.16.45.12 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::232; Received: by mail-qg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id q107so1441878qgd.9 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:45:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.232.1 with SMTP id js1mr19798485qcb.20.1411256712426; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.50.167 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.50.167 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:45:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140920203136.7bb8ab2c@aol.com> References: <20140920203136.7bb8ab2c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 17:45:12 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The important distinction between "cmene" and "cmevla" From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11343e1e080b62050387cf43 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11343e1e080b62050387cf43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 All cmevla are cmene, but not all cmene are cmevla. The same as with squares and rectangles. (cmevla are to cmene as squares are to rectangles) cmevla are the specific type of cmene that end in a consonant and glottal stop. la.djan. and la gleki are both cmene, but only la.djan. is a cmevla. On Sep 20, 2014 12:31 PM, "'Wuzzy' via lojban" wrote: > Hi. This e-mail is a bit of an essay. It is about names and "name > words". It is a long essay because I want to make sure it gets > understood no matter what. I write this in English because it is also > aimed at newbies. > > Many of you may already have heard of the word "cmevla". However, I > have noticed that some of you still haven't grasped the meaning of it > and under what motivation some people, including me, use it. So I write > this essay to help you understand and I think the distinction of > "cmene" vs. "cmevla" is quite important. > > Let's start with "cmene". > Here's the definition of "cmene": "x1 (quoted word(s)) is a/the > name/title/tag of x2 to/used-by namer/name-user x3 (person)" > > So as I understand this definition, x1 can only fit into the predicate > word "cmene" if the quoted word(s) are actually the name of something. > > "zo trolololololololololol cmene" may be false, iff there is actually > nothing with this strange name. > > But most important, "cmene" is all about the name of something. It does > *not* make an assertion about morphology. > > Consider these lojbanic statements: > * "zo lojban cmene la lojban" > * "zo gleki cmene la gleki" > * "lu donald dak li'u cmene la donald dak > > These should be obviously true, but of course only if there are > actually things called "lojban", "gleki" or "donald dak". For our > purposes, I assume that this is the case. The translation is always > something along the lines of "'Foobar' is the name of > Foobar." (carefully look at the quotes). > > But now consider this statement: > * "lu donald gustav li'u cmene la donald gustav li'u" > > Now let's pretend there is actually nothing in the universe called > "donald gustav". Then it is false. Yet "donald gustav" shares something > with "donald dak": The word "donald". It is interesting because it is > unlike words like "gismu", "cidjrpitsa", "gerzda". > > Which leads us to the so-called "name words", the "cmevla". > > The current definition of "cmevla" is "x1 is a morphologically defined > name word meaning x2 in language x3.". The notes say: "In Lojban, such > words are characterized by ending with a consonant. In Lojban, a cmevla > may only consist of a single word, whereas a cmene can consist of one > or multiple words, which may be cmevla. See also vlaturge'a." > > Source: > > I think the current definition is really unlucky and probably hard to > understand. But luckily, the notes clear it up a bit. I think I grasped > it. But still, it should be probably reworded (=same meaning in > different words). > > As I understand it, a cmevla is all about morphology. It it detached > from the concept of "name". In Lojban, a cmevla is a special kind of > word which ends in a consonant. But that is just one property of a > clevla. In fact, cmevla make their own word class (or "part-of-speech" > if you insist), along with gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla and cmavo. The CLL > chapter defines word classes in the morphology chapter, in the section > "cmene" (I come to that title later). If you read the section > carefully, it becomes clear that it talks about morphology most of the > time. If we use the CLL definition of "cmene" in that chapter for > "cmene", then this is true: > > * "zo djim cmevla" > * "zo djein cmevla" > * "zo arnold cmevla" > > But these aren't: > > * "lu donald dak li'u cmevla" (false, it is not a single word) > * "zo gleki cmevla" (Wrong word class. The word "gleki" belongs to the > word class "gismu") > > To say "zo gleki cmene" is correct, but it just means "'gleki' is a > name.", but we wanted to say something else. > > In short, a cmevla is a single word which falls under the rules of the > "cmene" chapter of the CLL. All brivla are not cmevla. Multiple words > (like "donald dak") are no cmevla (but "donald dak" may be a cmene). > > I am pretty sure that the CLL uses the word "cmene" incorrectly. To > proof it, you have to see that the CLL distinguishes between these > basic word classes in Lojban: > * cmavo > * gismu > * lujvo > * fu'ivla > * cmene > > Now let's look if this holds true by inserting a word of the > corresponding word class into the x1: > > * zo go cmavo > * zo mabru gismu > * zo gerzda lujvo > * zo cidjrpitsa fu'ivla > * zo pitr cmene > > The first four ones should be acceptable without debate, the last one > is of interest here. Let's see what the last one means by simply > inserting it in the definition of "cmene": > > "'pitr' is a name of someone, given by some name-giver." > Or short: > "'pitr' is a name." > > It does not matter if this statement is actually true. But the problem > here is that this is not what we wanted to say. The CLL clearly talked > about a word class in the chapter called "cmene". > > Let's try it again with "cmevla": > * "zo pitr cmevla" > This simply means that "pitr" is a member of a word class we call > "cmevla". Which *is* what we wanted to say. > > When the CLL talks about a "cmene" is means actually a "cmevla" in most > of the cases. I think the reason why the CLL calls it "cmene" anyways > is simply that the word "cmevla" didn't exist when the CLL was written > and the authors were not really aware of the distinction. Also, there > is no real English translation for the concept behind "cmevla". I could > say "name word", but this lexeme would be created ad hoc and is alien > to most English-speaking people. Which may also be the reason why the > wording in the current definition on Jbovlaste is kinda tricky at the > moment. I would be very glad if someone could suggest a better wording > (without changing the meaning, of course!). Someone also suggested to > change the word class "cmene" to "cmevla" in Jbovlaste: > > > > To summarize: Say "cmevla" when you are talking about a word class, but > use "cmene" if you are talking about an actual name of something or > someone. If you talk about names, you may say this: "zo gleki cmene > .ije zo selpa'i cmene > .ije zo uuZIT cmene" > > But if you talk about word classes, you may say this: > "zo gleki gismu > .ije zo selpa'i lujvo > .ije zo uuZIT cmevla" > > But NOT this: > "zo gleki gismu > .ije zo selpa'i lujvo > .ije zo uuZIT cmene" > The last sentence is not false, but it is not what you wanted to say! > > > > So I hope you all understood this now. If you did, fine. If you didn't, > write a follow-up and tell me what you did not understand. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11343e1e080b62050387cf43 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

All cmevla are cmene, but not all cmene are cmevla. The same= as with squares and rectangles.

(cmevla are to cmene as squares are to rectangles)

cmevla are the specific type of cmene that end in a consonan= t and glottal stop.

la.djan. and la gleki are both cmene, but only la.djan. is a= cmevla.

On Sep 20, 2014 12:31 PM, "'Wuzzy' = via lojban" <lojban@goog= legroups.com> wrote:
Hi. This e-mail is a bit of an essay. It is about names and “= name
words”. It is a long essay because I want to make sure it gets
understood no matter what. I write this in English because it is also
aimed at newbies.

Many of you may already have heard of the word “cmevla”. Howeve= r, I
have noticed that some of you still haven’t grasped the meaning of it=
and under what motivation some people, including me, use it. So I write
this essay to help you understand and I think the distinction of
“cmene” vs. “cmevla” is quite important.

Let’s start with “cmene”.
Here’s the definition of “cmene”: “x1 (quoted word(= s)) is a/the
name/title/tag of x2 to/used-by namer/name-user x3 (person)”

So as I understand this definition, x1 can only fit into the predicate
word “cmene” if the quoted word(s) are actually the name of som= ething.

“zo trolololololololololol cmene” may be false, iff there is ac= tually
nothing with this strange name.

But most important, “cmene” is all about the name of something.= It does
*not* make an assertion about morphology.

Consider these lojbanic statements:
 * “zo lojban cmene la lojban”
 * “zo gleki cmene la gleki”
 * “lu donald dak li'u cmene la donald dak

These should be obviously true, but of course only if there are
actually things called “lojban”, “gleki” or “= donald dak”. For our
purposes, I assume that this is the case. The translation is always
something along the lines of “‘Foobar’ is the name of
Foobar.” (carefully look at the quotes).

But now consider this statement:
 * “lu donald gustav li'u cmene la donald gustav li'u&rd= quo;

Now let’s pretend there is actually nothing in the universe called “donald gustav”. Then it is false. Yet “donald gustav&rdq= uo; shares something
with “donald dak”: The word “donald”. It is interes= ting because it is
unlike words like “gismu”, “cidjrpitsa”, “ger= zda”.

Which leads us to the so-called “name words”, the “cmevla= ”.

The current definition of “cmevla” is “x1 is a morphologi= cally defined
name word meaning x2 in language x3.”. The notes say: “In Lojba= n, such
words are characterized by ending with a consonant. In Lojban, a cmevla
may only consist of a single word, whereas a cmene can consist of one
or multiple words, which may be cmevla. See also vlaturge'a.”

Source: <http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/cmevla>

I think the current definition is really unlucky and probably hard to
understand. But luckily, the notes clear it up a bit. I think I grasped
it. But still, it should be probably reworded (=3Dsame meaning in
different words).

As I understand it, a cmevla is all about morphology. It it detached
from the concept of “name”. In Lojban, a cmevla is a special ki= nd of
word which ends in a consonant. But that is just one property of a
clevla. In fact, cmevla make their own word class (or “part-of-speech= ”
if you insist), along with gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla and cmavo. The CLL
chapter defines word classes in the morphology chapter, in the section
“cmene” (I come to that title later). If you read the section carefully, it becomes clear that it talks about morphology most of the
time. If we use the CLL definition of “cmene” in that chapter f= or
“cmene”, then this is true:

 * “zo djim cmevla”
 * “zo djein cmevla”
 * “zo arnold cmevla”

But these aren’t:

 * “lu donald dak li'u cmevla” (false, it is not a sin= gle word)
 * “zo gleki cmevla” (Wrong word class. The word “gl= eki” belongs to the
word class “gismu”)

To say “zo gleki cmene” is correct, but it just means “&l= squo;gleki’ is a
name.”, but we wanted to say something else.

In short, a cmevla is a single word which falls under the rules of the
“cmene” chapter of the CLL. All brivla are not cmevla. Multiple= words
(like “donald dak”) are no cmevla (but “donald dak”= may be a cmene).

I am pretty sure that the CLL uses the word “cmene” incorrectly= . To
proof it, you have to see that the CLL distinguishes between these
basic word classes in Lojban:
 * cmavo
 * gismu
 * lujvo
 * fu'ivla
 * cmene

Now let’s look if this holds true by inserting a word of the
corresponding word class into the x1:

 * zo go cmavo
 * zo mabru gismu
 * zo gerzda lujvo
 * zo cidjrpitsa fu'ivla
 * zo pitr cmene

The first four ones should be acceptable without debate, the last one
is of interest here. Let’s see what the last one means by simply
inserting it in the definition of “cmene”:

“‘pitr’ is a name of someone, given by some name-giver.&r= dquo;
Or short:
“‘pitr’ is a name.”

It does not matter if this statement is actually true. But the problem
here is that this is not what we wanted to say. The CLL clearly talked
about a word class in the chapter called “cmene”.

Let’s try it again with “cmevla”:
 * “zo pitr cmevla”
This simply means that “pitr” is a member of a word class we ca= ll
“cmevla”. Which *is* what we wanted to say.

When the CLL talks about a “cmene” is means actually a “c= mevla” in most
of the cases. I think the reason why the CLL calls it “cmene” a= nyways
is simply that the word “cmevla” didn’t exist when the CL= L was written
and the authors were not really aware of the distinction. Also, there
is no real English translation for the concept behind “cmevla”.= I could
say “name word”, but this lexeme would be created ad hoc and is= alien
to most English-speaking people. Which may also be the reason why the
wording in the current definition on Jbovlaste is kinda tricky at the
moment. I would be very glad if someone could suggest a better wording
(without changing the meaning, of course!). Someone also suggested to
change the word class “cmene” to “cmevla” in Jbovla= ste:
<https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/59>


To summarize: Say “cmevla” when you are talking about a word cl= ass, but
use “cmene” if you are talking about an actual name of somethin= g or
someone. If you talk about names, you may say this: “zo gleki cmene    .ije zo selpa'i cmene
   .ije zo uuZIT cmene”

But if you talk about word classes, you may say this:
  “zo gleki gismu
   .ije zo selpa'i lujvo
   .ije zo uuZIT cmevla”

But NOT this:
  “zo gleki gismu
   .ije zo selpa'i lujvo
   .ije zo uuZIT cmene”
The last sentence is not false, but it is not what you wanted to say!



So I hope you all understood this now. If you did, fine. If you didn’= t,
write a follow-up and tell me what you did not understand.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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