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Message-ID: <1411258581.42034.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 17:16:21 -0700
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] The important distinction between "cmene" and "cmevla"
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Well, except that neither is either, since the la.djan and la.gleki both ap=
pear to be human males.  However, {djan} is a cmevla (the {la} and the paus=
es are not parts of the name but parts the apparatus for using it to refer =
to someone). gleki} is, as noted, a gismu. Like any Lojban word (well, almo=
st any), it can be used to name something/one by enclosing it in pauses and=
 slapping a {la} in front.  To that extent it is a cmene (and also the fact=
 that someone actually uses it in this way).  In short, cmevla are inherent=
ly cmene s re strings of cmevla; everything else is a cmene only insofar as=
 occurs after {la} (etc.) and enclosed in pauses. (Should {cmene} perhaps b=
e reserved for {la. ... .} expressions or would that introduce a new confus=
ion where people, asked for their names, gave things that astarted with {la=
} and ended witha pause?


On Saturday, September 20, 2014 6:45 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
=20


All cmevla are cmene, but not all cmene are cmevla. The same as with square=
s and rectangles.
(cmevla are to cmene as squares are to rectangles)
cmevla are the specific type of cmene that end in a consonant and glottal s=
top.
la.djan. and la gleki are both cmene, but only la.djan. is a cmevla.
On Sep 20, 2014 12:31 PM, "'Wuzzy' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com> wr=
ote:

Hi. This e-mail is a bit of an essay. It is about names and =E2=80=9Cname
>words=E2=80=9D. It is a long essay because I want to make sure it gets
>understood no matter what. I write this in English because it is also
>aimed at newbies.
>
>Many of you may already have heard of the word =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D. H=
owever, I
>have noticed that some of you still haven=E2=80=99t grasped the meaning of=
 it
>and under what motivation some people, including me, use it. So I write
>this essay to help you understand and I think the distinction of
>=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D vs. =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D is quite important.
>
>Let=E2=80=99s start with =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D.
>Here=E2=80=99s the definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cx1 (quo=
ted word(s)) is a/the
>name/title/tag of x2 to/used-by namer/name-user x3 (person)=E2=80=9D
>
>So as I understand this definition, x1 can only fit into the predicate
>word =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D if the quoted word(s) are actually the name o=
f something.
>
>=E2=80=9Czo trolololololololololol cmene=E2=80=9D may be false, iff there =
is actually
>nothing with this strange name.
>
>But most important, =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D is all about the name of somet=
hing. It does
>*not* make an assertion about morphology.
>
>Consider these lojbanic statements:
> * =E2=80=9Czo lojban cmene la lojban=E2=80=9D
> * =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene la gleki=E2=80=9D
> * =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li'u cmene la donald dak
>
>These should be obviously true, but of course only if there are
>actually things called =E2=80=9Clojban=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cgleki=E2=80=9D o=
r =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D. For our
>purposes, I assume that this is the case. The translation is always
>something along the lines of =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98Foobar=E2=80=99 is the name=
 of
>Foobar.=E2=80=9D (carefully look at the quotes).
>
>But now consider this statement:
> * =E2=80=9Clu donald gustav li'u cmene la donald gustav li'u=E2=80=9D
>
>Now let=E2=80=99s pretend there is actually nothing in the universe called
>=E2=80=9Cdonald gustav=E2=80=9D. Then it is false. Yet =E2=80=9Cdonald gus=
tav=E2=80=9D shares something
>with =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D: The word =E2=80=9Cdonald=E2=80=9D. It i=
s interesting because it is
>unlike words like =E2=80=9Cgismu=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Ccidjrpitsa=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cgerzda=E2=80=9D.
>
>Which leads us to the so-called =E2=80=9Cname words=E2=80=9D, the =E2=80=
=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D.
>
>The current definition of =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D is =E2=80=9Cx1 is a mor=
phologically defined
>name word meaning x2 in language x3.=E2=80=9D. The notes say: =E2=80=9CIn =
Lojban, such
>words are characterized by ending with a consonant. In Lojban, a cmevla
>may only consist of a single word, whereas a cmene can consist of one
>or multiple words, which may be cmevla. See also vlaturge'a.=E2=80=9D
>
>Source: <http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/cmevla>
>
>I think the current definition is really unlucky and probably hard to
>understand. But luckily, the notes clear it up a bit. I think I grasped
>it. But still, it should be probably reworded (=3Dsame meaning in
>different words).
>
>As I understand it, a cmevla is all about morphology. It it detached
>from the concept of =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. In Lojban, a cmevla is a speci=
al kind of
>word which ends in a consonant. But that is just one property of a
>clevla. In fact, cmevla make their own word class (or =E2=80=9Cpart-of-spe=
ech=E2=80=9D
>if you insist), along with gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla and cmavo. The CLL
>chapter defines word classes in the morphology chapter, in the section
>=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D (I come to that title later). If you read the sect=
ion
>carefully, it becomes clear that it talks about morphology most of the
>time. If we use the CLL definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D in that chap=
ter for
>=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D, then this is true:
>
> * =E2=80=9Czo djim cmevla=E2=80=9D
> * =E2=80=9Czo djein cmevla=E2=80=9D
> * =E2=80=9Czo arnold cmevla=E2=80=9D
>
>But these aren=E2=80=99t:
>
> * =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li'u cmevla=E2=80=9D (false, it is not a single =
word)
> * =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmevla=E2=80=9D (Wrong word class. The word =E2=80=9C=
gleki=E2=80=9D belongs to the
>word class =E2=80=9Cgismu=E2=80=9D)
>
>To say =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene=E2=80=9D is correct, but it just means =E2=
=80=9C=E2=80=98gleki=E2=80=99 is a
>name.=E2=80=9D, but we wanted to say something else.
>
>In short, a cmevla is a single word which falls under the rules of the
>=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D chapter of the CLL. All brivla are not cmevla. Mul=
tiple words
>(like =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D) are no cmevla (but =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=
=E2=80=9D may be a cmene).
>
>I am pretty sure that the CLL uses the word =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D incorr=
ectly. To
>proof it, you have to see that the CLL distinguishes between these
>basic word classes in Lojban:
> * cmavo
> * gismu
> * lujvo
> * fu'ivla
> * cmene
>
>Now let=E2=80=99s look if this holds true by inserting a word of the
>corresponding word class into the x1:
>
> * zo go cmavo
> * zo mabru gismu
> * zo gerzda lujvo
> * zo cidjrpitsa fu'ivla
> * zo pitr cmene
>
>The first four ones should be acceptable without debate, the last one
>is of interest here. Let=E2=80=99s see what the last one means by simply
>inserting it in the definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D:
>
>=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98pitr=E2=80=99 is a name of someone, given by some name-g=
iver.=E2=80=9D
>Or short:
>=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98pitr=E2=80=99 is a name.=E2=80=9D
>
>It does not matter if this statement is actually true. But the problem
>here is that this is not what we wanted to say. The CLL clearly talked
>about a word class in the chapter called =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D.
>
>Let=E2=80=99s try it again with =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D:
> * =E2=80=9Czo pitr cmevla=E2=80=9D
>This simply means that =E2=80=9Cpitr=E2=80=9D is a member of a word class =
we call
>=E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D. Which *is* what we wanted to say.
>
>When the CLL talks about a =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D is means actually a =E2=
=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D in most
>of the cases. I think the reason why the CLL calls it =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=
=9D anyways
>is simply that the word =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D didn=E2=80=99t exist when=
 the CLL was written
>and the authors were not really aware of the distinction. Also, there
>is no real English translation for the concept behind =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=
=80=9D. I could
>say =E2=80=9Cname word=E2=80=9D, but this lexeme would be created ad hoc a=
nd is alien
>to most English-speaking people. Which may also be the reason why the
>wording in the current definition on Jbovlaste is kinda tricky at the
>moment. I would be very glad if someone could suggest a better wording
>(without changing the meaning, of course!). Someone also suggested to
>change the word class =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D =
in Jbovlaste:
><https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/59>
>
>
>To summarize: Say =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D when you are talking about a wo=
rd class, but
>use =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D if you are talking about an actual name of som=
ething or
>someone. If you talk about names, you may say this: =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmen=
e
>   .ije zo selpa'i cmene
>   .ije zo uuZIT cmene=E2=80=9D
>
>But if you talk about word classes, you may say this:
>  =E2=80=9Czo gleki gismu
>   .ije zo selpa'i lujvo
>   .ije zo uuZIT cmevla=E2=80=9D
>
>But NOT this:
>  =E2=80=9Czo gleki gismu
>   .ije zo selpa'i lujvo
>   .ije zo uuZIT cmene=E2=80=9D
>The last sentence is not false, but it is not what you wanted to say!
>
>
>
>So I hope you all understood this now. If you did, fine. If you didn=E2=80=
=99t,
>write a follow-up and tell me what you did not understand.
>
>--
>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups =
"lojban" group.
>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an =
email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
--=20
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
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--431184223-1563374434-1411258581=:42034
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:He=
lveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt"><div><span>Well, except that neither is either, since the la.=
djan and la.gleki both appear to be human males. &nbsp;However, {djan} is a=
 cmevla (the {la} and the pauses are not parts of the name but parts the ap=
paratus for using it to refer to someone). gleki} is, as noted, a gismu. Li=
ke any Lojban word (well, almost any), it can be used to name something/one=
 by enclosing it in pauses and slapping a {la} in front. &nbsp;To that exte=
nt it is a cmene (and also the fact that someone actually uses it in this w=
ay). &nbsp;In short, cmevla are inherently cmene s re strings of cmevla; ev=
erything else is a cmene only insofar as occurs after {la} (etc.) and enclo=
sed in pauses. (Should {cmene} perhaps be reserved for {la. ... .} expressi=
ons or would that introduce a new confusion where people, asked for
 their names, gave things that astarted with {la} and ended witha pause?</s=
pan></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: =
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-se=
rif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span><br></span><=
/div> <div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=3D"yahoo_quoted=
" style=3D"display: block;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Hel=
vetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12p=
t;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica,=
 Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <=
font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> On Saturday, September 20, 2014 6:45 PM, Jo=
nathan Jones &lt;eyeonus@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<br> </font> </div>  <br><br> =
<div class=3D"y_msg_container"><div id=3D"yiv8136763839"><div><div dir=3D"l=
tr">All cmevla are cmene, but not all cmene are cmevla. The same as with sq=
uares and
 rectangles.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">(cmevla are to cmene as squares are to rectangles)</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">cmevla are the specific type of cmene that end in a conson=
ant and glottal stop.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">la.djan. and la gleki are both cmene, but only la.djan. is=
 a cmevla.</div>
<div class=3D"yiv8136763839yqt3133764348" id=3D"yiv8136763839yqt65843"><div=
 class=3D"yiv8136763839gmail_quote">On Sep 20, 2014 12:31 PM, "'Wuzzy' via =
lojban" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@goo=
glegroups.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lo=
jban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><blockquote class=3D=
"yiv8136763839gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex;">Hi. This e-mail is a bit of an essay. It is about =
names and =E2=80=9Cname<br clear=3D"none">
words=E2=80=9D. It is a long essay because I want to make sure it gets<br c=
lear=3D"none">
understood no matter what. I write this in English because it is also<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
aimed at newbies.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Many of you may already have heard of the word =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D. Ho=
wever, I<br clear=3D"none">
have noticed that some of you still haven=E2=80=99t grasped the meaning of =
it<br clear=3D"none">
and under what motivation some people, including me, use it. So I write<br =
clear=3D"none">
this essay to help you understand and I think the distinction of<br clear=
=3D"none">
=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D vs. =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D is quite important.<br=
 clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Let=E2=80=99s start with =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D.<br clear=3D"none">
Here=E2=80=99s the definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cx1 (quot=
ed word(s)) is a/the<br clear=3D"none">
name/title/tag of x2 to/used-by namer/name-user x3 (person)=E2=80=9D<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
So as I understand this definition, x1 can only fit into the predicate<br c=
lear=3D"none">
word =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D if the quoted word(s) are actually the name of=
 something.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
=E2=80=9Czo trolololololololololol cmene=E2=80=9D may be false, iff there i=
s actually<br clear=3D"none">
nothing with this strange name.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
But most important, =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D is all about the name of someth=
ing. It does<br clear=3D"none">
*not* make an assertion about morphology.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Consider these lojbanic statements:<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* =E2=80=9Czo lojban cmene la lojban=E2=80=9D<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene la gleki=E2=80=9D<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li'u cmene la donald dak<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
These should be obviously true, but of course only if there are<br clear=3D=
"none">
actually things called =E2=80=9Clojban=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cgleki=E2=80=9D or=
 =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D. For our<br clear=3D"none">
purposes, I assume that this is the case. The translation is always<br clea=
r=3D"none">
something along the lines of =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98Foobar=E2=80=99 is the name =
of<br clear=3D"none">
Foobar.=E2=80=9D (carefully look at the quotes).<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
But now consider this statement:<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* =E2=80=9Clu donald gustav li'u cmene la donald gustav li'u=E2=80=9D=
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Now let=E2=80=99s pretend there is actually nothing in the universe called<=
br clear=3D"none">
=E2=80=9Cdonald gustav=E2=80=9D. Then it is false. Yet =E2=80=9Cdonald gust=
av=E2=80=9D shares something<br clear=3D"none">
with =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D: The word =E2=80=9Cdonald=E2=80=9D. It is=
 interesting because it is<br clear=3D"none">
unlike words like =E2=80=9Cgismu=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Ccidjrpitsa=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cgerzda=E2=80=9D.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Which leads us to the so-called =E2=80=9Cname words=E2=80=9D, the =E2=80=9C=
cmevla=E2=80=9D.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
The current definition of =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D is =E2=80=9Cx1 is a morp=
hologically defined<br clear=3D"none">
name word meaning x2 in language x3.=E2=80=9D. The notes say: =E2=80=9CIn L=
ojban, such<br clear=3D"none">
words are characterized by ending with a consonant. In Lojban, a cmevla<br =
clear=3D"none">
may only consist of a single word, whereas a cmene can consist of one<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
or multiple words, which may be cmevla. See also vlaturge'a.=E2=80=9D<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Source: &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ht=
tp://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/cmevla">http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/cme=
vla</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
I think the current definition is really unlucky and probably hard to<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
understand. But luckily, the notes clear it up a bit. I think I grasped<br =
clear=3D"none">
it. But still, it should be probably reworded (=3Dsame meaning in<br clear=
=3D"none">
different words).<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
As I understand it, a cmevla is all about morphology. It it detached<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
from the concept of =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. In Lojban, a cmevla is a specia=
l kind of<br clear=3D"none">
word which ends in a consonant. But that is just one property of a<br clear=
=3D"none">
clevla. In fact, cmevla make their own word class (or =E2=80=9Cpart-of-spee=
ch=E2=80=9D<br clear=3D"none">
if you insist), along with gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla and cmavo. The CLL<br clea=
r=3D"none">
chapter defines word classes in the morphology chapter, in the section<br c=
lear=3D"none">
=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D (I come to that title later). If you read the secti=
on<br clear=3D"none">
carefully, it becomes clear that it talks about morphology most of the<br c=
lear=3D"none">
time. If we use the CLL definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D in that chapt=
er for<br clear=3D"none">
=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D, then this is true:<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* =E2=80=9Czo djim cmevla=E2=80=9D<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* =E2=80=9Czo djein cmevla=E2=80=9D<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* =E2=80=9Czo arnold cmevla=E2=80=9D<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
But these aren=E2=80=99t:<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li'u cmevla=E2=80=9D (false, it is not a sin=
gle word)<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmevla=E2=80=9D (Wrong word class. The word =E2=
=80=9Cgleki=E2=80=9D belongs to the<br clear=3D"none">
word class =E2=80=9Cgismu=E2=80=9D)<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
To say =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene=E2=80=9D is correct, but it just means =E2=
=80=9C=E2=80=98gleki=E2=80=99 is a<br clear=3D"none">
name.=E2=80=9D, but we wanted to say something else.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
In short, a cmevla is a single word which falls under the rules of the<br c=
lear=3D"none">
=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D chapter of the CLL. All brivla are not cmevla. Mult=
iple words<br clear=3D"none">
(like =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D) are no cmevla (but =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=
=E2=80=9D may be a cmene).<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
I am pretty sure that the CLL uses the word =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D incorre=
ctly. To<br clear=3D"none">
proof it, you have to see that the CLL distinguishes between these<br clear=
=3D"none">
basic word classes in Lojban:<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* cmavo<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* gismu<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* lujvo<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* fu'ivla<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* cmene<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Now let=E2=80=99s look if this holds true by inserting a word of the<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
corresponding word class into the x1:<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* zo go cmavo<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* zo mabru gismu<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* zo gerzda lujvo<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* zo cidjrpitsa fu'ivla<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;* zo pitr cmene<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
The first four ones should be acceptable without debate, the last one<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
is of interest here. Let=E2=80=99s see what the last one means by simply<br=
 clear=3D"none">
inserting it in the definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D:<br clear=3D"none=
">
<br clear=3D"none">
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98pitr=E2=80=99 is a name of someone, given by some name-gi=
ver.=E2=80=9D<br clear=3D"none">
Or short:<br clear=3D"none">
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98pitr=E2=80=99 is a name.=E2=80=9D<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
It does not matter if this statement is actually true. But the problem<br c=
lear=3D"none">
here is that this is not what we wanted to say. The CLL clearly talked<br c=
lear=3D"none">
about a word class in the chapter called =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D.<br clear=
=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Let=E2=80=99s try it again with =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D:<br clear=3D"none"=
>
&nbsp;* =E2=80=9Czo pitr cmevla=E2=80=9D<br clear=3D"none">
This simply means that =E2=80=9Cpitr=E2=80=9D is a member of a word class w=
e call<br clear=3D"none">
=E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D. Which *is* what we wanted to say.<br clear=3D"non=
e">
<br clear=3D"none">
When the CLL talks about a =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D is means actually a =E2=
=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D in most<br clear=3D"none">
of the cases. I think the reason why the CLL calls it =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=
=9D anyways<br clear=3D"none">
is simply that the word =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D didn=E2=80=99t exist when =
the CLL was written<br clear=3D"none">
and the authors were not really aware of the distinction. Also, there<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
is no real English translation for the concept behind =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=
=9D. I could<br clear=3D"none">
say =E2=80=9Cname word=E2=80=9D, but this lexeme would be created ad hoc an=
d is alien<br clear=3D"none">
to most English-speaking people. Which may also be the reason why the<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
wording in the current definition on Jbovlaste is kinda tricky at the<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
moment. I would be very glad if someone could suggest a better wording<br c=
lear=3D"none">
(without changing the meaning, of course!). Someone also suggested to<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
change the word class =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D i=
n Jbovlaste:<br clear=3D"none">
&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://gi=
thub.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/59">https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/is=
sues/59</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
To summarize: Say =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D when you are talking about a wor=
d class, but<br clear=3D"none">
use =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D if you are talking about an actual name of some=
thing or<br clear=3D"none">
someone. If you talk about names, you may say this: =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene=
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp;.ije zo selpa'i cmene<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp;.ije zo uuZIT cmene=E2=80=9D<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
But if you talk about word classes, you may say this:<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Czo gleki gismu<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp;.ije zo selpa'i lujvo<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp;.ije zo uuZIT cmevla=E2=80=9D<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
But NOT this:<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Czo gleki gismu<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp;.ije zo selpa'i lujvo<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp;.ije zo uuZIT cmene=E2=80=9D<br clear=3D"none">
The last sentence is not false, but it is not what you wanted to say!<br cl=
ear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
So I hope you all understood this now. If you did, fine. If you didn=E2=80=
=99t,<br clear=3D"none">
write a follow-up and tell me what you did not understand.<br clear=3D"none=
">
<br clear=3D"none">
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