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Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:17:42 +0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] The important distinction between "cmene" and "cmevla"
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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It'd be easier to just say that cmevla is a morphological class of words
with its defining feature that it ends in  a consonant (there are other
features like fewer forbidden clusters compared to brivla).
One can of course add that cmevla don't have a place structure and are used
only for cmene. But that would be not for newbies but for those who is
already constructing words to add to JVS.

2014-09-20 22:31 GMT+04:00 'Wuzzy' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>:

> Hi. This e-mail is a bit of an essay. It is about names and =E2=80=9Cname
> words=E2=80=9D. It is a long essay because I want to make sure it gets
> understood no matter what. I write this in English because it is also
> aimed at newbies.
>
> Many of you may already have heard of the word =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D. =
However, I
> have noticed that some of you still haven=E2=80=99t grasped the meaning o=
f it
> and under what motivation some people, including me, use it. So I write
> this essay to help you understand and I think the distinction of
> =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D vs. =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D is quite important.
>
> Let=E2=80=99s start with =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D.
> Here=E2=80=99s the definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cx1 (qu=
oted word(s)) is a/the
> name/title/tag of x2 to/used-by namer/name-user x3 (person)=E2=80=9D
>
> So as I understand this definition, x1 can only fit into the predicate
> word =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D if the quoted word(s) are actually the name =
of something.
>
> =E2=80=9Czo trolololololololololol cmene=E2=80=9D may be false, iff there=
 is actually
> nothing with this strange name.
>
> But most important, =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D is all about the name of some=
thing. It does
> *not* make an assertion about morphology.
>
> Consider these lojbanic statements:
>  * =E2=80=9Czo lojban cmene la lojban=E2=80=9D
>  * =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene la gleki=E2=80=9D
>  * =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li'u cmene la donald dak
>
> These should be obviously true, but of course only if there are
> actually things called =E2=80=9Clojban=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cgleki=E2=80=9D =
or =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D. For our
> purposes, I assume that this is the case. The translation is always
> something along the lines of =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98Foobar=E2=80=99 is the nam=
e of
> Foobar.=E2=80=9D (carefully look at the quotes).
>
> But now consider this statement:
>  * =E2=80=9Clu donald gustav li'u cmene la donald gustav li'u=E2=80=9D
>
> Now let=E2=80=99s pretend there is actually nothing in the universe calle=
d
> =E2=80=9Cdonald gustav=E2=80=9D. Then it is false. Yet =E2=80=9Cdonald gu=
stav=E2=80=9D shares something
> with =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D: The word =E2=80=9Cdonald=E2=80=9D. It =
is interesting because it is
> unlike words like =E2=80=9Cgismu=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Ccidjrpitsa=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cgerzda=E2=80=9D.
>
> Which leads us to the so-called =E2=80=9Cname words=E2=80=9D, the =E2=80=
=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D.
>
> The current definition of =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D is =E2=80=9Cx1 is a mo=
rphologically defined
> name word meaning x2 in language x3.=E2=80=9D. The notes say: =E2=80=9CIn=
 Lojban, such
> words are characterized by ending with a consonant. In Lojban, a cmevla
> may only consist of a single word, whereas a cmene can consist of one
> or multiple words, which may be cmevla. See also vlaturge'a.=E2=80=9D
>
> Source: <http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/cmevla>
>
> I think the current definition is really unlucky and probably hard to
> understand. But luckily, the notes clear it up a bit. I think I grasped
> it. But still, it should be probably reworded (=3Dsame meaning in
> different words).
>
> As I understand it, a cmevla is all about morphology. It it detached
> from the concept of =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. In Lojban, a cmevla is a spec=
ial kind of
> word which ends in a consonant. But that is just one property of a
> clevla. In fact, cmevla make their own word class (or =E2=80=9Cpart-of-sp=
eech=E2=80=9D
> if you insist), along with gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla and cmavo. The CLL
> chapter defines word classes in the morphology chapter, in the section
> =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D (I come to that title later). If you read the sec=
tion
> carefully, it becomes clear that it talks about morphology most of the
> time. If we use the CLL definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D in that cha=
pter for
> =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D, then this is true:
>
>  * =E2=80=9Czo djim cmevla=E2=80=9D
>  * =E2=80=9Czo djein cmevla=E2=80=9D
>  * =E2=80=9Czo arnold cmevla=E2=80=9D
>
> But these aren=E2=80=99t:
>
>  * =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li'u cmevla=E2=80=9D (false, it is not a single=
 word)
>  * =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmevla=E2=80=9D (Wrong word class. The word =E2=80=
=9Cgleki=E2=80=9D belongs to the
> word class =E2=80=9Cgismu=E2=80=9D)
>
> To say =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene=E2=80=9D is correct, but it just means =E2=
=80=9C=E2=80=98gleki=E2=80=99 is a
> name.=E2=80=9D, but we wanted to say something else.
>
> In short, a cmevla is a single word which falls under the rules of the
> =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D chapter of the CLL. All brivla are not cmevla. Mu=
ltiple words
> (like =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D) are no cmevla (but =E2=80=9Cdonald da=
k=E2=80=9D may be a cmene).
>
> I am pretty sure that the CLL uses the word =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D incor=
rectly. To
> proof it, you have to see that the CLL distinguishes between these
> basic word classes in Lojban:
>  * cmavo
>  * gismu
>  * lujvo
>  * fu'ivla
>  * cmene
>
> Now let=E2=80=99s look if this holds true by inserting a word of the
> corresponding word class into the x1:
>
>  * zo go cmavo
>  * zo mabru gismu
>  * zo gerzda lujvo
>  * zo cidjrpitsa fu'ivla
>  * zo pitr cmene
>
> The first four ones should be acceptable without debate, the last one
> is of interest here. Let=E2=80=99s see what the last one means by simply
> inserting it in the definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D:
>
> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98pitr=E2=80=99 is a name of someone, given by some name-=
giver.=E2=80=9D
> Or short:
> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98pitr=E2=80=99 is a name.=E2=80=9D
>
> It does not matter if this statement is actually true. But the problem
> here is that this is not what we wanted to say. The CLL clearly talked
> about a word class in the chapter called =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D.
>
> Let=E2=80=99s try it again with =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D:
>  * =E2=80=9Czo pitr cmevla=E2=80=9D
> This simply means that =E2=80=9Cpitr=E2=80=9D is a member of a word class=
 we call
> =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D. Which *is* what we wanted to say.
>
> When the CLL talks about a =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D is means actually a =
=E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D in most
> of the cases. I think the reason why the CLL calls it =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=
=80=9D anyways
> is simply that the word =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D didn=E2=80=99t exist whe=
n the CLL was written
> and the authors were not really aware of the distinction. Also, there
> is no real English translation for the concept behind =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=
=80=9D. I could
> say =E2=80=9Cname word=E2=80=9D, but this lexeme would be created ad hoc =
and is alien
> to most English-speaking people. Which may also be the reason why the
> wording in the current definition on Jbovlaste is kinda tricky at the
> moment. I would be very glad if someone could suggest a better wording
> (without changing the meaning, of course!). Someone also suggested to
> change the word class =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D=
 in Jbovlaste:
> <https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/59>
>
>
> To summarize: Say =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D when you are talking about a w=
ord class, but
> use =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D if you are talking about an actual name of so=
mething or
> someone. If you talk about names, you may say this: =E2=80=9Czo gleki cme=
ne
>    .ije zo selpa'i cmene
>    .ije zo uuZIT cmene=E2=80=9D
>
> But if you talk about word classes, you may say this:
>   =E2=80=9Czo gleki gismu
>    .ije zo selpa'i lujvo
>    .ije zo uuZIT cmevla=E2=80=9D
>
> But NOT this:
>   =E2=80=9Czo gleki gismu
>    .ije zo selpa'i lujvo
>    .ije zo uuZIT cmene=E2=80=9D
> The last sentence is not false, but it is not what you wanted to say!
>
>
>
> So I hope you all understood this now. If you did, fine. If you didn=E2=
=80=99t,
> write a follow-up and tell me what you did not understand.
>
> --
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>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">It&#39;d be easier to just say that cmevla is a morphologi=
cal class of words with its defining feature that it ends in =C2=A0a conson=
ant (there are other features like fewer forbidden clusters compared to bri=
vla).<div>One can of course add that cmevla don&#39;t have a place structur=
e and are used only for cmene. But that would be not for newbies but for th=
ose who is already constructing words to add to JVS.</div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2014-09-20 22:31 GMT+04:00 =
&#39;Wuzzy&#39; via lojban <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@g=
ooglegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span>:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi. This e-mail is a bit of an essay. It =
is about names and =E2=80=9Cname<br>
words=E2=80=9D. It is a long essay because I want to make sure it gets<br>
understood no matter what. I write this in English because it is also<br>
aimed at newbies.<br>
<br>
Many of you may already have heard of the word =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D. Ho=
wever, I<br>
have noticed that some of you still haven=E2=80=99t grasped the meaning of =
it<br>
and under what motivation some people, including me, use it. So I write<br>
this essay to help you understand and I think the distinction of<br>
=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D vs. =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D is quite important.<br=
>
<br>
Let=E2=80=99s start with =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D.<br>
Here=E2=80=99s the definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D: =E2=80=9Cx1 (quot=
ed word(s)) is a/the<br>
name/title/tag of x2 to/used-by namer/name-user x3 (person)=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
So as I understand this definition, x1 can only fit into the predicate<br>
word =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D if the quoted word(s) are actually the name of=
 something.<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9Czo trolololololololololol cmene=E2=80=9D may be false, iff there i=
s actually<br>
nothing with this strange name.<br>
<br>
But most important, =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D is all about the name of someth=
ing. It does<br>
*not* make an assertion about morphology.<br>
<br>
Consider these lojbanic statements:<br>
=C2=A0* =E2=80=9Czo lojban cmene la lojban=E2=80=9D<br>
=C2=A0* =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene la gleki=E2=80=9D<br>
=C2=A0* =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li&#39;u cmene la donald dak<br>
<br>
These should be obviously true, but of course only if there are<br>
actually things called =E2=80=9Clojban=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cgleki=E2=80=9D or=
 =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D. For our<br>
purposes, I assume that this is the case. The translation is always<br>
something along the lines of =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98Foobar=E2=80=99 is the name =
of<br>
Foobar.=E2=80=9D (carefully look at the quotes).<br>
<br>
But now consider this statement:<br>
=C2=A0* =E2=80=9Clu donald gustav li&#39;u cmene la donald gustav li&#39;u=
=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
Now let=E2=80=99s pretend there is actually nothing in the universe called<=
br>
=E2=80=9Cdonald gustav=E2=80=9D. Then it is false. Yet =E2=80=9Cdonald gust=
av=E2=80=9D shares something<br>
with =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D: The word =E2=80=9Cdonald=E2=80=9D. It is=
 interesting because it is<br>
unlike words like =E2=80=9Cgismu=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Ccidjrpitsa=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cgerzda=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
Which leads us to the so-called =E2=80=9Cname words=E2=80=9D, the =E2=80=9C=
cmevla=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
The current definition of =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D is =E2=80=9Cx1 is a morp=
hologically defined<br>
name word meaning x2 in language x3.=E2=80=9D. The notes say: =E2=80=9CIn L=
ojban, such<br>
words are characterized by ending with a consonant. In Lojban, a cmevla<br>
may only consist of a single word, whereas a cmene can consist of one<br>
or multiple words, which may be cmevla. See also vlaturge&#39;a.=E2=80=9D<b=
r>
<br>
Source: &lt;<a href=3D"http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/cmevla" target=3D"_=
blank">http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/cmevla</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
I think the current definition is really unlucky and probably hard to<br>
understand. But luckily, the notes clear it up a bit. I think I grasped<br>
it. But still, it should be probably reworded (=3Dsame meaning in<br>
different words).<br>
<br>
As I understand it, a cmevla is all about morphology. It it detached<br>
from the concept of =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. In Lojban, a cmevla is a specia=
l kind of<br>
word which ends in a consonant. But that is just one property of a<br>
clevla. In fact, cmevla make their own word class (or =E2=80=9Cpart-of-spee=
ch=E2=80=9D<br>
if you insist), along with gismu, lujvo, fu&#39;ivla and cmavo. The CLL<br>
chapter defines word classes in the morphology chapter, in the section<br>
=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D (I come to that title later). If you read the secti=
on<br>
carefully, it becomes clear that it talks about morphology most of the<br>
time. If we use the CLL definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D in that chapt=
er for<br>
=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D, then this is true:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0* =E2=80=9Czo djim cmevla=E2=80=9D<br>
=C2=A0* =E2=80=9Czo djein cmevla=E2=80=9D<br>
=C2=A0* =E2=80=9Czo arnold cmevla=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
But these aren=E2=80=99t:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0* =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li&#39;u cmevla=E2=80=9D (false, it is not a=
 single word)<br>
=C2=A0* =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmevla=E2=80=9D (Wrong word class. The word =E2=
=80=9Cgleki=E2=80=9D belongs to the<br>
word class =E2=80=9Cgismu=E2=80=9D)<br>
<br>
To say =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene=E2=80=9D is correct, but it just means =E2=
=80=9C=E2=80=98gleki=E2=80=99 is a<br>
name.=E2=80=9D, but we wanted to say something else.<br>
<br>
In short, a cmevla is a single word which falls under the rules of the<br>
=E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D chapter of the CLL. All brivla are not cmevla. Mult=
iple words<br>
(like =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=E2=80=9D) are no cmevla (but =E2=80=9Cdonald dak=
=E2=80=9D may be a cmene).<br>
<br>
I am pretty sure that the CLL uses the word =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D incorre=
ctly. To<br>
proof it, you have to see that the CLL distinguishes between these<br>
basic word classes in Lojban:<br>
=C2=A0* cmavo<br>
=C2=A0* gismu<br>
=C2=A0* lujvo<br>
=C2=A0* fu&#39;ivla<br>
=C2=A0* cmene<br>
<br>
Now let=E2=80=99s look if this holds true by inserting a word of the<br>
corresponding word class into the x1:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0* zo go cmavo<br>
=C2=A0* zo mabru gismu<br>
=C2=A0* zo gerzda lujvo<br>
=C2=A0* zo cidjrpitsa fu&#39;ivla<br>
=C2=A0* zo pitr cmene<br>
<br>
The first four ones should be acceptable without debate, the last one<br>
is of interest here. Let=E2=80=99s see what the last one means by simply<br=
>
inserting it in the definition of =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D:<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98pitr=E2=80=99 is a name of someone, given by some name-gi=
ver.=E2=80=9D<br>
Or short:<br>
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98pitr=E2=80=99 is a name.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
It does not matter if this statement is actually true. But the problem<br>
here is that this is not what we wanted to say. The CLL clearly talked<br>
about a word class in the chapter called =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
Let=E2=80=99s try it again with =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D:<br>
=C2=A0* =E2=80=9Czo pitr cmevla=E2=80=9D<br>
This simply means that =E2=80=9Cpitr=E2=80=9D is a member of a word class w=
e call<br>
=E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D. Which *is* what we wanted to say.<br>
<br>
When the CLL talks about a =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D is means actually a =E2=
=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D in most<br>
of the cases. I think the reason why the CLL calls it =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=
=9D anyways<br>
is simply that the word =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D didn=E2=80=99t exist when =
the CLL was written<br>
and the authors were not really aware of the distinction. Also, there<br>
is no real English translation for the concept behind =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=
=9D. I could<br>
say =E2=80=9Cname word=E2=80=9D, but this lexeme would be created ad hoc an=
d is alien<br>
to most English-speaking people. Which may also be the reason why the<br>
wording in the current definition on Jbovlaste is kinda tricky at the<br>
moment. I would be very glad if someone could suggest a better wording<br>
(without changing the meaning, of course!). Someone also suggested to<br>
change the word class =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D i=
n Jbovlaste:<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/59" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/59</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
To summarize: Say =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D when you are talking about a wor=
d class, but<br>
use =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D if you are talking about an actual name of some=
thing or<br>
someone. If you talk about names, you may say this: =E2=80=9Czo gleki cmene=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.ije zo selpa&#39;i cmene<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.ije zo uuZIT cmene=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
But if you talk about word classes, you may say this:<br>
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Czo gleki gismu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.ije zo selpa&#39;i lujvo<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.ije zo uuZIT cmevla=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
But NOT this:<br>
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Czo gleki gismu<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.ije zo selpa&#39;i lujvo<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0.ije zo uuZIT cmene=E2=80=9D<br>
The last sentence is not false, but it is not what you wanted to say!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
So I hope you all understood this now. If you did, fine. If you didn=E2=80=
=99t,<br>
write a follow-up and tell me what you did not understand.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
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